What Kind of Car is Best For Pakistan

[MotownMadman]

I am putting together a consortium of international talent to investigate the ideal cars for the Pakistani People. We are doing market studies, but I value the opinion of many PakWheels contributors. Also, if anyone here feels thay can make "World Class" contributions in a greater capacity, I would love to hear from you. The idea is to assemble a team to design and engineer a family of cars leveraging global internet access to exchange CAD and Engineering data and ideas using Pakistani ex-patriat talent who can not come back to Pakistan...This is real and gaining steam, so please take this seriously and save any jokes for other posts. After all, what better forum to conduct such research.

Please Describe the following, your reasoning, and comments on regional needs, ie, city vs. mountain use etc. The intent is to look at a complete LINE of vehicles from a 4 door family sedan, 2 door sports coupe, minivan and pickup. What would sell and why for each segment; What should be the price/performance balance:

1. Length
2. Wheelbase
3. Width
4. Engine displacement and power (please be realistic)
5. Weight
6. Option range (A/C standard or optional? CD, Airbags, Seatbelts, Power windows...you get the idea.
7. Price (without tax)
8. Projected sales volume in cars/year

Thank you very much!

[datzburier]

You definately are correct by involving the car enthusiasts in Pakistan right at the beginning of the design stage project.

Keeping in view, the buying public of Pakistan, the initial car should be a sub compact. As the majority of cars sold in Pakistan are in this hatchback, subcompact category.

1. Length of the car should be
between 3500mm to 3900mm

2. Wheelbase
2400mm to 2500mm

3. Width
1600mm to 1700mm

4. Engine Displacement and power
Engine Displacement should not exceed (800cc to 1000cc range), considering its a Subcompact hatchback. People are highly concerned with rising Petrol prices on routine basis, as atleast 30% are run on CNG now and this ratio is rising.

@ Power of
35-40ps/5500-6000rpm
derived from Inline 4 cylinder.

5. Weight;
Perhaps between 1500-2000lbs

6. Options
(Standard equipment;
Seatbelts, AM/FM radio/Cassette)

CNG, A/C, CD, Airbags, Powerwindows optional to keep the price low for the base model.

Price;

Between Rs. 200,000 for base and Rs. 350,000 for fully equipped before taxes.

Projected Sales/Year

10,000 - 15,000 per year.

As there is a shortage of 20,000 to 25,000 cars in this segment.

This is initial estimate.

Lets everyone have their say in this with good estimations.

[Cylestyne]

Weight is too much, 2000lbs with 40ps power would be ridiculous on fuel consumption and speed. It should be a ligther vehicle if you're going to give it 38HP. Actually even 38HP is pretty bad and shouldn't be in anything other than a rickshaw, it should be more around 68HP.

[Cylestyne]

If you're going to make a small car at least make it classy. Look at the Toyota Vitz and Santro Exec as examples. Pakistani's with hardwork can achieve that and more easily. Don't finish it like the Revo, it won't sell well. People want quality, people want looks, with the height of Pakistani labor being all-so-affordable it shouldn't be a difficult job. Planning is the key.

Under powered engines are another problem, in my opinion the smallest engine even for a subcompact hatchback should be atleast 1300CC with 75BHP. Ofcourse that's just my opinon but I frankly think 1000CC engines are yesteryear's news.

Even if you make a basic model, make it look good. Powered Windows should -not- be an option. They don't really cost much to craft, you can even have them put in non powered cars for as little as 7,000 Rupees for a really good job with excellent finishing.

Handles are out, non-EFI engines are out as well, if you're going to make a Pakistani car that can stand out, then make one which does a better job at being a worldclass car than it's closest counterparts (Santro, Vitz, etc).

Adam Motors made a cheap car, now it's upto the next entrepreneur to make a world-class Pakistani car. If one existed, I'd buy it just to show my support of the country's products.

[shueyb]

Pakistan's top selling car is Mehran, followed by Corolla. Since you plan to launch a range of cars, these two segments are the most popular. There had been no competition for Mehran till the arrival of Revo. The entry-level sedan segment is also vacant in Pakistan. Earlier there were Suzuki Margalla and Kia Classic in this segment. So there is also a need for an entry level sedan costing not more than Rs. 600 k.
Your first car can be a hatchback, with engine displacement of 800cc (we already have four cars in 1000cc category: Alto, Cultus, Santro, Exclusive) and retail price of not more than Rs. 300k.

Visit www.pama.org.pk for the sales figures of Pakistani cars.

[levin]

Reply By : Cylestyne on 11/15/2005 1:13:22 PM
Weight is too much, 2000lbs with 40ps power would be ridiculous on fuel consumption and speed. It should be a ligther vehicle if you're going to give it 38HP. Actually even 38HP is pretty bad and shouldn't be in anything other than a rickshaw, it should be more around 68HP.


Cylestyne:
According to SAE standards i think mehran falls in range of 30 to 34hp, riksha's are 5 hp max...250cc engine

[hank007]

I agree with the specs posted by datzburier except engine power; 35-40 ps is low. Should be around 50.
Except Cuore, almost all the cars in hatchback segement in Pakistan have roughly the same specs. Cuore engine doesn't produce much power but then it's weighs less comparatively. Looking at economics, roads and parkings, I wouldn't recommend a sedan at all!!!

[wik_a]

@datzburier!
Hey bro! i need your e-mail address. i posted a topic but i think you didn't look at that. Anyhow give me your e-mail address.

[hunchback5]

everything is OK except the engine specs and power... displacement should be 1300 CC-1500 CC, DOHC and EFI...HP should be 60-80...
Safety "MUST" be the biggest concern as many cars nowadays arent safe at all....Seat belts,side impact beams and airbags Should be Standard, not optional...The shape should be attractive..not with round head lamps in the front and shoe shaped body design....should be aerodynamic, stable and air packed....ground clearance must not exceed 10 inches..

[Cylestyne]

@datz

Mehran isn't a good car my friend =) As our roads develop, we will need cars which are capable of fast acceleration and fast speeds. Who wants to be stuck behind a mehran in the right and left lane? lol

Moreover do you really feel safe taking the mehran on our super highway? (I haven't been in one so I can't say but from the looks and specs of that car, you'd have to chain me to the car if you wanted to take me on the highway in it lol).

[datzburier]

Thanks evereyone for the feedback.
Wik_a brother, the e-mail is;

datzburier@hotmail.com

The reason HP is low, in my estimate, is purely due to matter of affordability. I based my estimates on the fact that what will sell with higher chance for survival as a new entrant. Majority of people in Pakistan (with budget of 2 to 5 lakh)are not concerned with High powered cars like in US, Europe or even Middle East.

Pakistani car buying majority follows the trend of what happens in China, India, Thailand, or almost all other South and South East Asian countries. General public is just tired of lack of good public transport system. They want a car with basically 4 wheels, the power and torque ratios are not remotely on their minds.

Having said that. It will be a good idea to also ponder a mid-size entry level 4 door sedan, the size of Margalla, or Suzuki Baleno, in the price range of Rs. 500,000 to 700,000. Now in this category you can bump up the horses comfortably to, 60-70+ HP, range with atleast a 1.3 liter engine.

I believe Pakistan has capability to design and manufature cars that are atleast as good as a Suzuki Baleno, and perhaps in a decade, who knows we can even compete with Corolla or Civic. Those cars are made by people, none different than us. Basic small hatchback car like REVO has all the components that make up Corolla or Civic. Its not the matter of if Pakistan can make a sedan, but at what cost and quality.

Really, this topic is at the heart of Pakistan's industrialization. All the Engineering/Finance minded people, your input is urgently required on this discussion.

[Cylestyne]

While I do understand your point-of-view; the fact remains the public will be comparing the car to it's closest counterparts (Revo, Santro, Vitz etc).

Pakistan at this point already has a tin-box on wheels (Adam Revo which competes with Mehran) now we need something with power which competes with international standards.

Get the drift? I don't think it's profitable for any company to start competing with Revo at this point, they should instead try to capture a market that Adam hasn't, which is basically higher-level subcompacts.

Think of the market out there?

- College going youngsters
- Small businessmen
- Middle-class women
- People who want a small car in their house but don't want to compromise on quality or infact people who want a second car in their home with good quality

All this can be easily achieved for RS 400,000 to 500,000 which I think the car driving Pakistani's can afford.

A company needs to establish higher standards than Adam Motors at this point, not reinvent their wheel (aka the Revo).

I am not saying that Adam motors did a bad job, they did what they could with their budget, but if a company with a higher budget can surface and see the potential market for a good product I am positive there are Pakistani's who will buy it. We do have national spirit except I don't think most of us want to throw it on a cheap product.

In the end the result is obvious, those who were targetted by Revo still ended up going to Mehran, Coure, Cultus, Santro or Vitz. I am not saying that I expected the Revo to take Pakistan by storm, but at least in a city like Karachi where everyone and their grandmother has a car- I expecd to see a Revo on the streets more often than twice a month. I really am yet to see a few Revos on the road here. It's almost a novelty, or a concept or a myth.

I do wish other people would give their input on this.

[Cylestyne]

By the way, your biggest markets for the properly finished products would be Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad in the top 3.

You should really try to get people's tastes and opinions on cars in these reigons.

[wheels]

no black bumpers plz!
yuk!

[abhatti]

in my opinion in sted of targeting compact or sub compact category, you should be targeting some thing like SMART FOR TWO so that people who are riding motoe bikes can have a 4 wheeler instead.
The other category I see is some thing like Suzuki Van b/c in pakistan family size is typically from 5 to 8 eople minimum, I would say nstead of copying some thing like Revo , cuore or mehran go for some other stuff.
I am invlove with design and manufacturing of automotive in North Ameica for last 5 yrs I don't know how will you accomplish this job over internet but any way good luck, I look forward to see you listed in Guiness book of world record.

[datzburier]

Cylestyne brother, everone has there own opinion, mine is based on matter of economics as I have assessed them.

I think you are leaning more towards a midsize, sedan or a larger hatchback, then what we currently have in sub compact category(Mehran, Revo, Alto, Cultus, etc). I respect you opinion brother.

About the weight of the car being too much, I don't think 1500lbs - 2000lbs is
a bad estimate. You also do not want to have a thin body tin box(as you call Revo, which I disagree with respectfully, Revo is more sturdier than Mehran, BTW). Anyway, a light body car will not be safe, specially in high wind, high speeds, the result would be loss of traction, or worst loss of control and a complete sandwich in case of an accident.

Average Merhan is about 700kgs. wich is roughly 1500+lbs and has about 34 Hp engine.

For a small car, 35-40 Hps is what is known as OPTIMUM HP for a car that small, which mean you don't want it to be either less or more powerful than it needs to be. If you put a bigger engine that will waste fuel and only give you 1 or 2 seconds gain on the 0-60MPH dash. The small car is not for street drag racing, but a common man's car with Optimum power, accesories and bare minimum to keep the car at a low price range for the poor man to afford and maintain and do not cost too much to refuel.

Thanks for reading this humble opinion.

[nickatnite]

Why not this car as a benchmark?.For Pak to develop their own version.Nothing wrong with that.The VW Golf was the base on which this one was designed, i'm sure.Or , something similar.The pic below is of the 2nd generation Indica.The original version didn't look good and was in danger of being rejected by the market.A new model is in the works.The designing was done by the european auto firm of IDEA.The indians didn't break their heads tring to design a home grown car.They outsourced it!!.It can be done in pakistan or anywhere.If the indians are unpalatable to you guys, then try the south koreans then!!.Remember when all Hyundai's were basically Mitsubishis??.

[c123pk]

We dont need a 75bhp hatchback here, affordibility is the biggest issue, ppl here wont go in their hatchbacks in a rally, they need space big space with little petrol consumption and the price tag of Rs. 1,99,000/= , the car will sell like CD70 , i guarantee that .
A max of 800cc EFI hatchback for Rs.1,99,000/= Dont need any power windows or steering in it, and the car will sell like hot cakes.

[c123pk]

@nickatnite we dont need any indian model to copy buddy
Here we already have all the variety of imported cars to copy, and such a big variety which you cant even dream of.

[Cylestyne]

Why must we insist on backwardness and make our country look more foolish than it already is? Did you guys not see the ridicule the Habib Sitara got on international forums?