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Thread: My 1988 Accord is giving me 4KM/L on petrol and 70K on 55KG Cylender

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    Default My 1988 Accord is giving me 4KM/L on petrol and 70K on 55KG Cylender

    Dear Pakwheelers

    I have just purchased 1988 Accord, it is giving me 4KM/L on petrol and 70K on 55KG Cylinder. Although I generally dont push full accelator. Also engine is leaking oil from tapit cover. Someone has sealed it with silicon kind of stuff instead of proper seal.

    My car has automatic transmission and it gives jerk when gear shifts. In D4 car moves like an old man, in d3 i generally go up 60 with half padel and on full padel maximum go around 80. In d2 I can go around 100.

    I have contacted few mechanics and they all said that swap the engine otherwise you won't get power and economy.

    So after discussion with 2 different mechanics and searching on internet here are the options:-

    1- Only change the automatic transmission with automatic to manual (it will cost around 20K in ISB), no guaranty that it will improve pick and mileage as per my expectation.
    2- Repair current engine for oil leaks and replace ring/piston. Not sure about price in ISB.
    3- Replace engine and transmission (It will cost around 100K for honda db15 dual vtec+transmission) But I have heard that 4efe (Toyota) is also good option for both fuel and economy. Should I replace the engine+transmission or not?
    4- Sell the car . Personally I don't want to sell the car unless it is the last option.

    Thanks in advance to all .

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    @Xulfiqar,

    I have tried accelerating in neutural, and engine respond to throttle very well, however when engaged in any drive mode (i generally drive my car in d3 coz d4 is not generating enough acceleration and d2 is not good for economy) Car do not accelerate as expected.

    I don't have thermostate installed in radiator and fan is direct. I belive that direct fan is slow poision for engine and I will fix this issue during this weekend.

    Even if after thermostate installed, if my car does not give me proper response, then I think I should go for compression testing , if compression testing fails then ring/piston/valve replacement otherwise culpurat will be transmission.

    Please can someone tell me that in ISB where compression testing can be done, coz when I talk mechanics about compression testing they look at my face like I am an alien ,

    waisy b karachi waly ISB my alag hi nazar aaty hy

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    @Xulfiqar,

    Can you confirm this is location of pcv :-

    http://www.3geez.com/forum/attachmen...es-do-pcv3.jpg

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    the block,pistons and rings, crank and rods are very heavy duty in this engine, loss of compression is usually a valve problem on these in my experience.

    But if you have ever overheated the engine to the extent of siezing it then the rings might be snapped or broken.

    Did your mechanic check the timing belt alignment and did he or you verify the distributor centrifugal advance is working? You remove the cap and rotate the arm in normal direction, it should turn a little and snap back under spring pressure. If its not doing this or feels sloppy and soft - you need to overhaul or replace the distributor. If its bad the engine will never behave like it should.

    e.g. in D4 driving normally on petrol the engine should effortlessly move the car from 60 to 100 km/h easily without lugging. If not then I would suggest you inspect the carburettor to see if its original - the original 1.6 carb has slightly bigger throttles than the 1.5 or other older carbs available in the scrap market. For compression testing ask the mechanic who has a "cyllindar presshar meter" - If they dont know what it is then look for a good mechanic, this current one is a hack job
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirdneo View Post
    @Xulfiqar,

    Can you confirm this is location of pcv :-

    http://www.3geez.com/forum/attachmen...es-do-pcv3.jpg
    yes thats the PCV, Its a metal part on this engine and usually never wears out - only requires a bit of cleaning if not working good. Its not fit in the manifold as it seems, The manifold has a hole to make it stick out, it actually fits in a rubber/plastic pipe beneath it.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    @Xulfiqar , when i drive my car on light foot it gives same 4 to 5km average on petrol and 60km on CNG full cylinder, then i tested it many times on hard foot driving and overdriving in D2 and D3 and with AC on, it still gives same average, means there is no difference in fuel economy if i drive it with ac or without ac, if i drive it with 5rm or with 2.5rpm. WHY fuel consumption is same? if i dont use AC why cant i get better average?

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    @Xulfiqar

    thanks for your detailed response, I will discuss with mechanic about timing belt alignment and distributor condition if the distributer does not work as expected then I will replace that.

    Also can you share that how much fuel economy we can expect from this engine with D4 and normal speed (not too much breaking, acceleration). I think fuel economy of engine is a good indicator that engine and all the relevant items are working in proper condition.

    I want a figure to benchmark my engine performance against expected engine performance of my car. If there is marginal difference then I can assume that its acceptable coz engine is not brand new and same is the case with transmission. But if there is huge difference then I should keep discussing and try to figure out the root cause of the problem.

    I belive that accord 88 was best in the business when it was launched and still this is alot better then Pakistan assembled cars. But how much should I expect from this car in terms of top speed and pick/acceleration and fuel average.

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    I can find that stats from internet but I think that there must be some thing wrong with petrol in Pakistan, in a D15b Dual vtec thread I read that this engine can give up to 20KM/L when driven at constant speed of 60KM/H but in Pakistan I think D15b Dual vtec hardly goes above 12~13 even on long routes.

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    @sulemanb

    Seems quite weird to me , I think that there must be some leak in your fuel system which mean if you drive your car for two hours fuel tank will be empty due to leaks either you drive at 20KM/H or 100KM/H.

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    sirdneo, no bro there is no leak , cause i get the same thing on CNG, same milage with ac or wihtout ac., if there were leaking in petrol then on cng it should not do the same.

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    you should see about 8 km or 9 km/lit with this engine. Correctly tune it. If I had this car I would do the following.

    Step 1 - remove valve cover
    step 2 remove upper belt cover
    step 3 remove distro cap
    step 4 remove spark plugs

    ensure timing belt is correctly aligned - the crankshaft TDC mark is seen from the timing hole, its on the bell housing of the gearbox near the engine number.

    rotate the engine to cyl 1 TDC seen from the cam pulley and do the valve clearances, you rotate the engine and align the TOP mark of the cam pulley at different positions to do the valves of cyl 1, 3, 2 and 4

    step 5 - check the distributor centrifugal advance, if slightly sloppy, remove and overhaul it.

    step 6 - ensure the little vacuum pipes are good and correctly positioned.

    step 7 - ensure the carburettor secondary throttle opens at the correct time - more than half throttle at high rpm should allow it to open up - If it does not open your engine will suck more fuel and less air as it tries to breathe through the primary throttle - it will cause high fuel intake whether its petrol or CNG.

    finally inspect the main jets of the carburettor, if some genius has probed them with a metal needle or similar they are bad.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    @Xulfiqar,

    This Sunday I have visited mechanic and discuss the things which you mentioned, He pulled the distributor cap and whole unit and washed it with kerosine oil and then scrubbed the all dirty parts. Then removed the spark plugs and he said they are good. He washed them with kerosine oil as well and used little bit of grinder to make them shine again (not whole spark plug just the tip area).

    He also mentioned that there is no need to change plug wires/plugs they are in working condition. I also told him to align the spark plug's tips to one direction ( I have read that it can give you 1~5% of gain in many cases).

    My valve cover was sealed with silicon and mechanic said that it will take some time to open and adjust the valves so I did not asked him to adjust them.

    Here are the results:-

    1- My Engine Idle is very smooth and sometime I have to press accelerator to guess if car is running or not.
    2- When I fully press accelerator in neutral, there is no delay and engine starts screaming like hell in start and then sound become smooth, although my RPM meter is not working but with engine sound I can tell that RPM really goes up quickly. Mechanic told me that this is different engine (lohy ka bana howa hy) and this is not noise free engine if you are comparing it with newer model engines. Is It true??
    3- In D3, I can easily go up to 90 in 8~11 seconds and car still accelerating, however since I did not went to a long road with less traffic and speed breakers so I can't test what will be the top speed. This figure is on CNG and I think on petrol I will get better results.
    4- CNG Consumption seems reasonably well, I mostly run car on AC and after full tank of 6KG gass, I have driven 40KM and still only one point is off on cng meter.

    Also I have checked the intake , and there is no PCV (U Shaped Pipe) on that , seems someone has removed it or there is no PCV on this model.

    One last thing, mechanic also told me that try to find a carburetor for this model in good condition. That will also help you to improve performance and fuel economy for your car.

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    Duplicate

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    If the PCV is missing your engine will die from oil becoming toxic sludge, most probably some mechanic broke the fitting pipe and the owner could not afford a new one, Last I checked it was about Rs 1000/- or Rs 1200/- from a honda spares shop. If you cannot find a new one, go to the scrap yard and buy a used one, find a U shaped pipe for it too. As I said without it your engine will slowly kill itself and also cause other oil leaks from everywhere.

    The distributor is supposed to be dismantled and greased, the greasing is done on the centrifugal mechanism which is below the bearing plate which holds the pulse generator. Its not very difficult to take apart. Did your mechanic verify that the centrifugal advance is working?

    for the valve cover being sealed up with RTV. buy a new genuine rubber gasket, do not settle for chinese/taiwan/substandard ones. Only a new genuine part works, 4 dabs of RTV are recommended on the edges of the round humps. The rest remains dry. Buy the 3 top sealing washers too.

    The engine is supposed to sound a bit rorty under load, without load its very quiet. btw did your mechanic check the timing belt alignment. It is 90% of times incorrect as most mechanics look at the crank pulley for marks while the TDC mark is on the flywheel/flexplate of the engine.

    btw - your mechanic saying nothing about the PCV and not opening the valve cover because its too much work sounds like a very incompetent mechanic to me.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    @Xulfiqar,

    thanks buddy, you always somehow suggest more improvement ideas.

    On this weekend i will definitely do something about PCV. Also I think flywheel is between engine and transmission so how mechanic can see that, correct me if i m wrong. I will discuss about correcting the timing. The centrifugal advance was working and he used something like light tourch to adjust the timing and run the car 3 times with full throttle. Then he said now it is good.

    Mechanic told me same thing, he said that first buy a gasket from RWP and then come to him for valve adjustment, (china ki 2 no gasket lagany sy acha hy jo laga howa hy usi sy guzara kero). So, I will be doing that on weekend. He also suggested that if car is going gr8, then don't adjust vales, generally valve adjustments are required after 30,000~40,000KM so if you are comfortable with performance, you can wait a bit and then adjust the valve.

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    the timing mark on the flywheel can be seen from a hole, its provided between the engine and transmission near and above where the engine number is stamped. If you look under spark plug no.4 you will find that hole, originally it is covered with a square rubber plug that has a handle to pull it off.

    Use a torch to see inside it, you will find a pin which is the pointer and the flywheel - flexplate for your car as its automatic, there will be a scale with the timing marks too. the T mark (usually painted yellow) is TDC (top dead centre). When installing the timing belt, this mark is set to T and the cam is set to the two side by side marks with the lettering of "TOP" on the pulley aligning with the mounting stud of the valve cover. When your mechanic was using the timing light, where was he pointing it on the engine?

    The centrifugal advance is checked by trying to move the distributor rotor arm by hand, if it moves and returns back under spring pressure very sharply its working good. If its soft or too easy to move then it requires attention.

    btw tappet clearance is checked every 15,000 or 20,000 kms on this engine.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    @Xulfiqar,

    Once again, thanks for your detailed response.

    1- Yes that was almost the location which you have mentioned. He was pointing the tourch there.
    2- For advance, he cleaned it with kerosine oil, scrub the points and applied very little grease on spring, then he did a test run and after that he replaced the spring with another old spring from his "treasure box".
    3- In next visit I will tell him to do tappet clearance and first by head gasket before going to him.

    One more thing, should I install Timing Advance Processor on my car? Some people says that after installing it their CNG milage and pick is improved. Here is a PW forum:-

    https://www.pakwheels.com/forums/cng...p-cng-vehicles

    Generally on EFI engine this is a must have item but what about carby engines. Is it worth installing it. I think it will cost me around Rs.2~3K with installation. What you suggest.

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    the advance mechanism can be completely taken apart, the top piece has a screw in it that allows the shaft to separate from the weight and springs, This shaft is then greased with high temperature wheel bearing grease. There are no points in the distributor, its a pulse generator that fires off a reluctor spinning near it.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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