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Thread: Better Spark Plugs for Suzuki Alto VXR!!!

  1. #1
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    Default Better Spark Plugs for Suzuki Alto VXR!!!

    Aslamo Alakum!

    Can any body may please help me to choose better spark plugs for my SUZUKI ALTO (to improve its efficiency/response).......

    Company manual recommends DENSO W16 EX-U or NGK BP 5 ES...is there any better choice???

    Thanking in advance....


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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by VCheng View Post
    For your Alto, it is best to stick with either the W16EXU or the BP5ES, whichever you can find easier and cheaper.

    Any "improved" spark plugs will not cause any appreciable improvement in performance of this engine because it is not designed for that.

    The only exception is if you have changes other things already: for example if you have leaned out the mixture, or if you do steady high speed running on the highway under load, the engine will run hotter, and you will need to move down the heat range (W20EXU or BP6ES).

    Similarly, if you runs mostly around town at low speeds, or if you run a richer mixture for performance, then moving up the heat range (W14EXU or BP4ES) will give you longer plug life and less fouling.

    Sometimes if there is pre-detonation due to carbon build up in a older engine, moving to a colder plug may help performance.

    Please note that "hot" and "cold" plugs refer to the design characteristics of a plug that determine the temperature of the tip of the spark plug depending on how quickly heat can be transferred away.

    Thus, you will see that a hotter plug has a thinner ceramic insulator so that less heat is conducted away and the tip remains hotter, whereas a colder plug will have a thicker ceramic insulator that conducts more heat away from the tip so that it remains cooler.

    Keep in mind that the heat range of a plug has only a minimal effect on the combustion temperature itself.

    Quite a lot of "high performance" and multi-tip plugs do not result in any improvements in a car engine like the one in the Alto.
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    vcheng,with all due respect bro,i dont agre with u on this
    compare a copper tip plug to a platinum or iridium tip,coper wil give the worst reponce,lets ask people using platinum/iridium plugs for the feed back?im my self using platinum plugs in my 1.3,they do make a lot of difference
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    Dont believe on all these stupid theories as to me they are not applicable on our country temperature conditions since all these assumptions are drawn in Foreign countries.
    SO far my practical experience with aftermkt plugs.
    1. Installed in Mehran
    Setup Simota Carby Boltonn Air filter,Aftermkt 10mm Plug wires and NGK Platinums.
    The car Is avergaing around 21-22k Kms and easily achieves topspeed of 140Km

    2, Suzuki Bolan
    Setup Ultima Plug Wires and NGK Platinums.
    The car avgs around 13 14km and yet eaisly achives 110km speed stock dont use to cross 90kms

    3. Mitsubishi Lancer 1.3L
    Setup N/A Iridiums intake headers bla bla Avg 13-14km

    Setup Turbo wth wider injetcors bla bla Avg 8-9kms

    4.Honda City Idsi
    Setup NGk Platinums
    Avg 16.5kms

    5.TOYOTA VITZ
    Setup used both Iridiums and platinums
    Avg 10 11km and never heared a single sound of knock which is common in this car.

    And many more.
    It all depends how ur car is tunned and wht is the condition of ur engine.Wht lubes are u using etc..

    Now coming to combustion
    Different plugs have different Spark.Platinums have more spark then copper.Why dont u reduce fuel dosage to manage better combustion.
    Hope u understood how u save fuel.

    I agree with every1 who say tht this mods have no response but withouth Tunning.If your car is properly tunned after these upgardes They will perform.

    Secondly most of copper plugs available in mkt are Cheap chinese Copies so be aware of them.
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    ^ how come u forgot to mention my corolla gli???? ^^

    setup
    air intake kit
    platinum plugs
    fuel avg 13.5 km/L
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    Quote Originally Posted by jz View Post
    vcheng,with all due respect bro,i dont agre with u on this
    compare a copper tip plug to a platinum or iridium tip,coper wil give the worst reponce,lets ask people using platinum/iridium plugs for the feed back?im my self using platinum plugs in my 1.3,they do make a lot of difference
    Please note that I was talking about only the heat ranges, not longevity.

    You are correct that platinum and iridium tipped plugs are better than the conventional type. They have a longer life due to the fact that the platinum/iridium tip does not oxidize as easily and thus the spark gap is maintained for much longer.

    So called "performance" plug with extra electrodes and cliams of bigger or hotter sparks are often dubious. Those plugs need to be backed up by an upgraded igntion system for that to happen.

    I hope I am clearer on this, but let's discuss this further as needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    Dont believe on all these stupid theories as to me they are not applicable on our country temperature conditions since all these assumptions are drawn in Foreign countries.
    You have the right to believe or disbelieve anything, and I will respect that right. What I write here is not theories, but merely correct facts and robust knowledge.

    Please feel free to ignore what I say. However, please note that name calling or ridiculing knowledge will not get you very far with me. Also, please let others make up their own mind based on what they understand.

    Nobody has the right to tell anyone else what to believe or not, including you and me.

    Pakistan's operating conditions for cars are not unique. They are stressful for machinery no doubt, but the engineers who design them are more wise and experienced than most of the people on this forum, myself included. Consider the conditions in the African bush, or the Australian outback, or South American jungles, and compare them to conditions in Pakistan for example.


    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    SO far my practical experience with aftermkt plugs.
    1. Installed in Mehran
    Setup Simota Carby Boltonn Air filter,Aftermkt 10mm Plug wires and NGK Platinums.
    The car Is avergaing around 21-22k Kms and easily achieves topspeed of 140Km

    2, Suzuki Bolan
    Setup Ultima Plug Wires and NGK Platinums.
    The car avgs around 13 14km and yet eaisly achives 110km speed stock dont use to cross 90kms

    3. Mitsubishi Lancer 1.3L
    Setup N/A Iridiums intake headers bla bla Avg 13-14km

    Setup Turbo wth wider injetcors bla bla Avg 8-9kms

    4.Honda City Idsi
    Setup NGk Platinums
    Avg 16.5kms

    5.TOYOTA VITZ
    Setup used both Iridiums and platinums
    Avg 10 11km and never heared a single sound of knock which is common in this car.

    And many more.
    In all of these examples, the role of spark plugs is not clear since you have only given anecdotal evidence, which has not been scientifically developed or evaluated.

    So all of these are not useful to our present discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    It all depends how ur car is tunned and wht is the condition of ur engine.Wht lubes are u using etc..
    That is correct. My point is that the original poster has an Alto, and for a stock engine, in reasonable condition, the stock plugs are just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    Now coming to combustion
    Different plugs have different Spark.Platinums have more spark then copper..
    The spark is determined by the plug gap, and the voltage across it. This has more to do with the ignition system. Once the spark initiates combustion, other factors assume much greater importance in the overall performance of the engine.

    Platinum and iridium tipped plugs do NOT have "more spark". They do have a longer service life due to decreased oxidation of the tip.

    My point is that stock plugs are quite sufficent to do this job properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    Why dont u reduce fuel dosage to manage better combustion.
    Hope u understood how u save fuel.
    Leaning out the mixture will increase combustion temperatures and reduce power and increase NOX emissions, among other things. Howoever, these aspects of combusiton are not the topic of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    I agree with every1 who say tht this mods have no response but withouth Tunning.If your car is properly tunned after these upgardes They will perform.
    This is somewhat correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    Secondly most of copper plugs available in mkt are Cheap chinese Copies so be aware of them.
    This is good advice. Use of OEM quality parts is to be recommended.

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    @VCheng Good knowledge....I really appreciate...as per ur guidance i have bought "DENSO W16EXU"...now let see what comes in my experience!!!!!!
    @wasay_ahmed.... nice discussion as well!

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    Whats the Engine code of the local Alto?

    Check out this link, engine codes are a bit mixed up as internationaly Alto comes with the G10 engine thats in Cultus efi where as the local alto has a Potohar engine

    http://www.globaldenso.com/cgi-bin/g...name=&cc=&FF=0
    Get over the fact that Xli lacks power windows, Its an Xli because it lacks thoose features or else it would be a Gli or an Altis if had all the goodies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by masaqib View Post
    @VCheng Good knowledge....I really appreciate...as per ur guidance i have bought "DENSO W16EXU"...now let see what comes in my experience!!!!!!

    @wasay_ahmed.... nice discussion as well!
    You are welcome. Please do report back.

    I am enjoying the discussion too.

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    @vcheng
    The thing is tht im stating my practical experience not ANECDOTES I can show u almost all these cars.Have installed in many anothers like JZ said his gli,my civic, lancer 1.6 frnds Se saloon and many more dont remember.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed
    SO far my practical experience with aftermkt plugs.
    1. Installed in Mehran
    Setup Simota Carby Boltonn Air filter,Aftermkt 10mm Plug wires and NGK Platinums.
    The car Is avergaing around 21-22k Kms and easily achieves topspeed of 140Km

    2, Suzuki Bolan
    Setup Ultima Plug Wires and NGK Platinums.
    The car avgs around 13 14km and yet eaisly achives 110km speed stock dont use to cross 90kms

    3. Mitsubishi Lancer 1.3L
    Setup N/A Iridiums intake headers bla bla Avg 13-14km

    Setup Turbo wth wider injetcors bla bla Avg 8-9kms

    4.Honda City Idsi
    Setup NGk Platinums
    Avg 16.5kms

    5.TOYOTA VITZ
    Setup used both Iridiums and platinums
    Avg 10 11km and never heared a single sound of knock which is common in this car.

    And many more.
    In all of these examples, the role of spark plugs is not clear since you have only given anecdotal evidence, which has not been scientifically developed or evaluated.

    So all of these are not useful to our present discussion

    Now wht can I further say brother regarding above
    Tht Mehran and CITY use to be on CNG coz of poor fuel mileage.After installation of Platinums we never ran cng in these cars coz of the figures which I hav already mentioned abov.yet lancer is very Popular for its poor fuell effiecney.My lancer use to hardly give 10km but after these mods the mileage improved

    Regarding more Spark n power gain.Didnt discussed any Evo or Supra although a Bolan Which never used to cross 90km speed but after only plug swap It went all the way till 110.Wht I know Horsepower helps alot the topend
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    @wasay_ahmed:

    Sure, I respect your experience with your cars, and if you think it is helping, then by all means please do what you feel is right for you. However, personal anecdotal experience is no substitute for properly researched and developed engineering and design, that's all I am saying.

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    If these Iridiums etc are not designed for these engines why are they mentioned in the owner manual given to us on the time of Purchase of car.Why is it recomended to use Hi Ocatne unleaded bla bla as per the Plug type in them??
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    If these Iridiums etc are not designed for these engines why are they mentioned in the owner manual given to us on the time of Purchase of car.Why is it recomended to use Hi Ocatne unleaded bla bla as per the Plug type in them??
    I do not fully understand your questions.

    Any plug can be replaced by an equivalent plug. Platinum and Iridium tipped plugs offer a longer service life, that's all, providing everything else on the engine is stock. Only if the entire ignition system has been upgraded, then a different specification spark plug may work better, as part of a systems upgrade.

    But then I am not talking about aftermarket modifications.

    I know of no car manual that says to use hi-octane. All it will specify is the minimum RON or MON or R+M/2 rating of the petrol to be used, similar to all other fluids and service parts.

    Please provide specific examples so that I can understand what you are saying better and thus be able to discuss them properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    Dont believe on all these stupid theories as to me they are not applicable on our country temperature conditions since all these assumptions are drawn in Foreign countries.
    SO far my practical experience with aftermkt plugs.
    1. Installed in Mehran
    Setup Simota Carby Boltonn Air filter,Aftermkt 10mm Plug wires and NGK Platinums.
    The car Is avergaing around 21-22k Kms and easily achieves topspeed of 140Km

    2, Suzuki Bolan
    Setup Ultima Plug Wires and NGK Platinums.
    The car avgs around 13 14km and yet eaisly achives 110km speed stock dont use to cross 90kms

    3. Mitsubishi Lancer 1.3L
    Setup N/A Iridiums intake headers bla bla Avg 13-14km

    Setup Turbo wth wider injetcors bla bla Avg 8-9kms

    4.Honda City Idsi
    Setup NGk Platinums
    Avg 16.5kms

    5.TOYOTA VITZ
    Setup used both Iridiums and platinums
    Avg 10 11km and never heared a single sound of knock which is common in this car.

    And many more.
    It all depends how ur car is tunned and wht is the condition of ur engine.Wht lubes are u using etc..

    Now coming to combustion
    Different plugs have different Spark.Platinums have more spark then copper.Why dont u reduce fuel dosage to manage better combustion.
    Hope u understood how u save fuel.

    I agree with every1 who say tht this mods have no response but withouth Tunning.If your car is properly tunned after these upgardes They will perform.

    Secondly most of copper plugs available in mkt are Cheap chinese Copies so be aware of them.
    May be you are right,but how a country's temperature can effect the temperature of the combustion chamber of a car.For instance, if you are driving a car in sahara desert,which plug you recommend?

    May be i am wrong,but how can you tune an EFI car engine?
    I have an other question.Why the cars which are imported in our country have iridium spark plugs as OEM?(toyota,suzuki,mini pajero).But in pakistan,most of our friends insist on copper plugs as OEM?

    Leaving plugs aside,as you have lots of experience with cars,no one like OEM tires from car manufacturing companies.Every body likes to change it immmediately.Why?

    On the other hand honda civic reborn has iridium spark plugs as OEM in pakistan.Why are they using iridium in our country conditions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VCheng View Post
    @wasay_ahmed:

    Sure, I respect your experience with your cars, and if you think it is helping, then by all means please do what you feel is right for you. However, personal anecdotal experience is no substitute for properly researched and developed engineering and design, that's all I am saying.
    Mr.V cheng.your answers are very elaborate.I have learned so much things from your reply.Most of the people think that multi tip spark plugs
    produce multiple sparks.But the fact is that only one spark is produced at a time.The only difference is the material and technology used to create a better spark for better combustion.

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    What makes good ignition?

    Ignition occurs in a modern automobile when an arc is struck and current flows between the electrodes of a spark plug, or when current migrates across the conductive medium in a surface gap plug. While that may sound simple at first, the process becomes progressively more complicated as engineers try to optimize the type of spark plug with the ignition system generating the required voltage.

    The amount of voltage necessary to arc the electrode gap is set by the following characteristics:

    * The size of the gap... arc-over voltage is roughly proportional to the gap size

    * The air/fuel ratio within the gap... the richer the air/fuel ratio (more gasoline vs. Air), the lower the required arc-over voltage

    * The compression at the moment arc-over is to occur... the higher the compression, the higher the required arc-over voltage

    * The composition of the electrode... certain metals for all the same conditions stated above will require less arc-over voltage than other metals. For example, platinum requires less arc-over voltage, all other things equal, than does steel


    * The shape of the electrode... the sharper and more jagged the shape, the easier it is for voltage to jump

    * The amount of fouling deposits trying to remove the electron flow from the arc... more fouling deposits and lower resistance to ground pulls more energy out of the spark gap.

    While it may therefore seem desirable to lower the required arc-over voltage, since without arc-over there is a total misfire and no ignition, low arc-over voltage produces low spark power because spark power is directly proportional to arc-over voltage. That is, by doubling the required arc-over voltage, you double the instantaneous peak spark power, and the higher the spark power, the better the ignition.


    All ignition is, therefore, a balance between the requirement to have sufficient arc-over voltage and increasing peak spark power for better, quicker ignition.

    What benefits to specialty plugs bring to this mix?


    One popular specialty type is platinum plugs. The primary advantage of these plugs, especially when used in an OEM ignition system (especially an older system, which may not be producing as much voltage as when it was new), is that platinum will require less arc-over voltage and therefore, particularly in a weak ignition, allows the gap to be jumped a higher percentage of the time.

    For example, if at factory gap and with steel electrode plugs, it requires as much as 18,000 volts five percent of the time to jump the arc... due to the changing engine environment and running conditions... and if the OEM only produces 17,000 volts, then it follows that five percent of the time there would be a misfire.

    Now, if one installs platinum plugs, which may only require, say, 13,000 volts to arc, the five percent misfiring with steel plugs would be eliminated. Since the ignition output on OEM ignition rolls off as rpm increases, platinum plugs in this case would allow the motor to reliably turn to higher rpm, thereby giving and increase in performance and possibly gas mileage.

    The disadvantage of this method of reducing misfires is that the higher arc-over voltage, the better the spark when it does fire.

    Therefore, platinum plugs will show a performance improvement with a weak ignition because the benefit from reducing the percentage of misfires more than outweighs the loss from reduced spark power.
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  18. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by raw1 View Post
    May be you are right,but how a country's temperature can effect the temperature of the combustion chamber of a car.For instance, if you are driving a car in sahara desert,which plug you recommend?

    May be i am wrong,but how can you tune an EFI car engine?
    I have an other question.Why the cars which are imported in our country have iridium spark plugs as OEM?(toyota,suzuki,mini pajero).But in pakistan,most of our friends insist on copper plugs as OEM?

    Leaving plugs aside,as you have lots of experience with cars,no one like OEM tires from car manufacturing companies.Every body likes to change it immmediately.Why?

    On the other hand honda civic reborn has iridium spark plugs as OEM in pakistan.Why are they using iridium in our country conditions?
    tyres are a totally different situation as compared to plugs, r18 civic comes with company fitted iridiums
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasay_ahmed View Post
    What makes good ignition?

    Ignition occurs in a modern automobile when an arc is struck and current flows between the electrodes of a spark plug, or when current migrates across the conductive medium in a surface gap plug. While that may sound simple at first, the process becomes progressively more complicated as engineers try to optimize the type of spark plug with the ignition system generating the required voltage.

    The amount of voltage necessary to arc the electrode gap is set by the following characteristics:

    * The size of the gap... arc-over voltage is roughly proportional to the gap size

    * The air/fuel ratio within the gap... the richer the air/fuel ratio (more gasoline vs. Air), the lower the required arc-over voltage

    * The compression at the moment arc-over is to occur... the higher the compression, the higher the required arc-over voltage

    * The composition of the electrode... certain metals for all the same conditions stated above will require less arc-over voltage than other metals. For example, platinum requires less arc-over voltage, all other things equal, than does steel


    * The shape of the electrode... the sharper and more jagged the shape, the easier it is for voltage to jump

    * The amount of fouling deposits trying to remove the electron flow from the arc... more fouling deposits and lower resistance to ground pulls more energy out of the spark gap.

    While it may therefore seem desirable to lower the required arc-over voltage, since without arc-over there is a total misfire and no ignition, low arc-over voltage produces low spark power because spark power is directly proportional to arc-over voltage. That is, by doubling the required arc-over voltage, you double the instantaneous peak spark power, and the higher the spark power, the better the ignition.


    All ignition is, therefore, a balance between the requirement to have sufficient arc-over voltage and increasing peak spark power for better, quicker ignition.

    What benefits to specialty plugs bring to this mix?


    One popular specialty type is platinum plugs. The primary advantage of these plugs, especially when used in an OEM ignition system (especially an older system, which may not be producing as much voltage as when it was new), is that platinum will require less arc-over voltage and therefore, particularly in a weak ignition, allows the gap to be jumped a higher percentage of the time.

    For example, if at factory gap and with steel electrode plugs, it requires as much as 18,000 volts five percent of the time to jump the arc... due to the changing engine environment and running conditions... and if the OEM only produces 17,000 volts, then it follows that five percent of the time there would be a misfire.

    Now, if one installs platinum plugs, which may only require, say, 13,000 volts to arc, the five percent misfiring with steel plugs would be eliminated. Since the ignition output on OEM ignition rolls off as rpm increases, platinum plugs in this case would allow the motor to reliably turn to higher rpm, thereby giving and increase in performance and possibly gas mileage.

    The disadvantage of this method of reducing misfires is that the higher arc-over voltage, the better the spark when it does fire.

    Therefore, platinum plugs will show a performance improvement with a weak ignition because the benefit from reducing the percentage of misfires more than outweighs the loss from reduced spark power.
    that is some nice explanation
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    @raw1
    Thts true these multiple tip spark plugs specifically bosch typs are of no use.

    Coming to the tyres.
    Every1 know the quality of General and euro star thts why they r replaced.Company ppl only use them to sav sum bucks thts it.

    In case of Spark plugs there is same reason.Internationally ABS,Air bags etc all features are introduced but in our country no such feature is introduced to save cos simple.
    Actualy its very well saying

    There are, of course, drawbacks with precious-metal plugs: they are more expensive, and they are very sensitive to excessive ignition advance. The overheating you get with too much spark lead effects plugs' center electrodes before it can be detected elsewhere in an engine, and when subjected to this kind of mistreatment fine-wire electrodes simply melt. In one sense this is a disadvantage, as it means the ruination of expensive spark plugs. Seen in another way it's a bonus feature: it is better to melt a plug electrode than an engine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by raw1 View Post

    May be i am wrong,but how can you tune an EFI car engine?
    heres ur answer

    this is how u tune an EFI engine.


    Inspect Air Filter. The cleaner the better here! Also check the air intake for splits or cracks and the air filter box for foreign material.
    Remove the air intake and thoroughly clean the throttle body bore and throttle plate by spraying with Throttle body cleaner. A rag placed directly underneath the throttle body stops the muck from going all over your driveway. NOTE – the vehicle will take longer to start and will run rough until the engine burns all the Throttle Body Cleaner – don’t stress this is normal! Refit air intake and air filter once done.
    Remove fuel filter. Drain the fuel from the filter in the opposite direction to which it normally travels. If it comes out black or has contaminates in it replace the filter.
    Remove and inspect the spark plugs. Be sure to note where each spark plug lead goes and which plug came out of which cylinder. The spark plugs can tell you a lot about how your engine is running. A brown or greyish-white colour on the insulator nose indicates good engine condition. A dry, black insulator nose and electrode indicates a rich fuel mixture possibly caused by a clogged air filter, faulty oxygen sensor or engine temp. sensor and the list goes on! A wet, black, oily insulator nose and electrode indicates the engine is burning oil. Potential causes can be worn piston rings, valve guides or seals or engine oil level way too high. If the insulator or electrode seems overly worn or the plugs are suffering from any of the above symptoms, a new set will help keep the engine running well until the problems can be addressed.
    Remove the disributor cap and check for cracks between the terminals.�Also check the rotor and remove any build-up with emery paper. Remove the spark plug leads one at a time and check the contacts in each end and remove any deposits if nescessary. Check the leads for cracks or perishing and replace if nescessary.
    If you have access to a timing light and the correct procedure for checking timing on your particular vehicle this would be a good time to do this. As different manufacturers use many different ways to check ignition timing this will not be possible without the correct information.
    Start the car and allow some time for the Throttle Body Cleaner to pass through the engine and then it’s test drive time. If you needed to replace a few parts you will notice a big difference in how the car runs, sometimes just cleaning the throttle body can make a huge difference to how the vehicle performs
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