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Thread: Automatic Choke in Paki Alto

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    Default Automatic Choke in Paki Alto

    Dear salaam.

    Can we installed automatic choke in Pak Alto so it will be automatically pulled when engine is cold ?
    Or there is any other way to solve the choke problem?
    I mean as Alto has manual choke so I have to pull choke mostly when engine is cold started until the Temp needle reach near to half scale.
    If choke is not pulled while engine is cold, it is to vibrate due to low RPM, some time turned OFF.
    When engine is at optimal Temp then every thing is fine and idle RPM are 800-900.
    !! DIY in a professional WAY!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    Yes, the pulled choke also puts pressure on the accelerator link so it revs up the engine. If you observe the choke mechanism at the carburettor while someone SLOWLY pulls at the choke knob, you will notice that during the first few cm of the travel, just the throttle linkage is being activated. The final few cm actuates the choke linkage. The idea being that you start the car from cold at full choke and once the car starts the choke is returned to about half position. This shuts the choke but keeps the engine at fast tick over for warming up purposes.
    So the choke act firstly mixture enrichment and then put pressure on accelerator mechanism to high rev as long as it is being pulled.

    When I use solenoid actuated vacuum pod for high rev when the engine is cold , it will do the second task. I mean NO throttle linkage actuation from vacuum pod.
    !! DIY in a professional WAY!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by uetian04 View Post
    So the choke act firstly mixture enrichment and then put pressure on accelerator mechanism to high rev as long as it is being pulled.

    When I use solenoid actuated vacuum pod for high rev when the engine is cold , it will do the second task. I mean NO throttle linkage actuation from vacuum pod.
    I also own a Suzuki Potohar amongst others. That one and the Alto have the same engine. Well let me clarify. Depending on how you look at it, If you have the choke in the fully pushed home position and begin to pull it out slowly and stop at about 50% of its travel; you will have just the accelerator activated. Further pulling to full out position, the accelerator is actuated more plus the choke is also actuated.

    If your idea is just to keep the engine running at a higher tick over for warming it up purposes, the idea of using an a/c idle up solenoid will work. My first post was an idea of a fully automated choke that works the choke feature from cold start to warm up. In that idea, the thermostat must be functioning correctly other wise the choke will be on all the time!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    I also own a Suzuki Potohar amongst others. That one and the Alto have the same engine. Well let me clarify. Depending on how you look at it, If you have the choke in the fully pushed home position and begin to pull it out slowly and stop at about 50% of its travel; you will have just the accelerator activated. Further pulling to full out position, the accelerator is actuated more plus the choke is also actuated.

    If your idea is just to keep the engine running at a higher tick over for warming it up purposes, the idea of using an a/c idle up solenoid will work. My first post was an idea of a fully automated choke that works the choke feature from cold start to warm up. In that idea, the thermostat must be functioning correctly other wise the choke will be on all the time!!
    While keeping things simple.
    I have external electronic temp sensor mounted on thermostat housing that perfectly follow the stock temp gauge reading.. The interface circuitry of this sensor will provide signal to solenoid for actuation purpose in cold condition.

    Let me find where is solenoid located and will
    !! DIY in a professional WAY!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by uetian04 View Post
    While keeping things simple.
    I have external electronic temp sensor mounted on thermostat housing that perfectly follow the stock temp gauge reading.. The interface circuitry of this sensor will provide signal to solenoid for actuation purpose in cold condition.

    Let me find where is solenoid located and will
    If you stand in front of the car and look at the carburettor, the solenoid should at the front of the carburettor, nearest to you (at least that is were my after marker solenoid is located). From memory I think it is the only thing on the carburettor to which electrical wires are connected .

    My old Jaguar has the set up in the picture below. The choke control is an independent to throttle control (both pictured below). The throttle is used to warm up the car. The bigger 2500 cc version if this same car has a fully automated choke that is linked to the thermostat. All done mechanically

    Automatic Choke in Paki Alto -1450790
    Throttle control

    Automatic Choke in Paki Alto -1450791
    Choke control

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    The vacuum pod idea may not work since there is no vacuum when the engine is off. The act of pulling the choke is to enrich the mixture so the engine may start and only after the engine has started will there be vacuum in the inlet manifold. So engine not running means no vacuum means no enrichment means no engine start!!

    In my suggestion above, I forgot to mention that the solenoid actually pulls at the same lever that the coke cable pulls. A solenoid wit a long enough stroke might be out of a ding-dong bell but only problem is that it works off 220V.
    oh yes, i completely forgot about that bit
    haters gonna hate, potatoes gonna potate

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    If you stand in front of the car and look at the carburettor, the solenoid should at the front of the carburettor, nearest to you (at least that is were my after marker solenoid is located). From memory I think it is the only thing on the carburettor to which electrical wires are connected .

    My old Jaguar has the set up in the picture below. The choke control is an independent to throttle control (both pictured below). The throttle is used to warm up the car. The bigger 2500 cc version if this same car has a fully automated choke that is linked to the thermostat. All done mechanically
    l
    I think this is solenoid actuated vacuum pod because it has liver attached to accelerator cable termination assembly.
    Automatic Choke in Paki Alto -1451010


    Now I also found two solenoids both mounted on air filter housing. Both have two electrical wires for actuation.
    There are two rubber pipes from each solenoid, one from each is connecting to vacuum pod as found in above pic and others to engine. I call these solenoid because both have electrical wires connection.

    Automatic Choke in Paki Alto -1451013
    So please guide me which one is AC idle up solenoid or tell how to confirm.

    Update:
    while testing with multimeter, I found that SOLENOID # 1 in picture activates when lights are turned ON. So This is electric loads idle up solenoid.

    Now please guide for 2nd one.
    While engine turned OFF it's both wire are getting +12 v so this mean it is actuated with earth level applied.
    !! DIY in a professional WAY!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by uetian04 View Post
    I think this is solenoid actuated vacuum pod because it has liver attached to accelerator cable termination assembly.
    Automatic Choke in Paki Alto -1451010


    Now I also found two solenoids both mounted on air filter housing. Both have two electrical wires for actuation.
    There are two rubber pipes from each solenoid, one from each is connecting to vacuum pod as found in above pic and others to engine. I call these solenoid because both have electrical wires connection.

    Automatic Choke in Paki Alto -1451013
    So please guide me which one is AC idle up solenoid or tell how to confirm.

    Update:
    while testing with multimeter, I found that SOLENOID # 1 in picture activates when lights are turned ON. So This is electric loads idle up solenoid.

    Now please guide for 2nd one.
    While engine turned OFF it's both wire are getting +12 v so this mean it is actuated with earth level applied.
    My bad you are absolutely right. I totally guided you wrong. The problem is that my Suzuki is in a different city so I am not able to scoot over to it and have a look at the carb set up to guide you. I am working from memory.

    I am 80% sure it is vacuum pod you have pointed out in the first picture. To be 100% sure, start the car, turn on the a/c, pull off the vacuum tube going from the solenoid to the vac pod. Put your finger over the end of the tube, you will feel a strong vacuum. Then turn the a/c off and the vacuum is no longer felt.

    The Suzuki Potohar does not have the Lights-on/idle-up feature. I have been thinking about your need to have the car at fast tick over (say 1500 RPM) for warm up. If you went back to the existing choke of your car and pulled it out about 25-30% of the way you will get the same desired effect with out any modification what so ever.

    BTW, very clean engine bay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    My bad you are absolutely right. I totally guided you wrong. The problem is that my Suzuki is in a different city so I am not able to scoot over to it and have a look at the carb set up to guide you. I am working from memory.

    I am 80% sure it is vacuum pod you have pointed out in the first picture. To be 100% sure, start the car, turn on the a/c, pull off the vacuum tube going from the solenoid to the vac pod. Put your finger over the end of the tube, you will feel a strong vacuum. then turn the a/c off and the vacuum is no longer felt.

    The Suzuki Potohar does not have the Lights-on/idle-up feature. I have been thinking about your need to have the car at fast tick over (say 1500 RPM) for warm up. If you went back to the existing choke of your car and pulled it out about 25-30% of the way you will get the same desired effect with out any modification what so ever.
    N.P you set up base line from where i had started my work.

    I will also test other solenoid to confirmed that this is the right candidate to work on it. Right now, I am making circuit for interfacing. it is almost done.
    Now i have two solenoid choices, electric loads idle and AC idle up. I will test which one to use as required one. Since AC idle up may provide bit high RPM because of AC compressor is still OFF (no AC load on engine). I think The vacuum pull on vac pod is different for both solenoids as both pipes are ending at different point .
    !! DIY in a professional WAY!!

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    i think you should go for ac idle up, that one is capable of greater rpm raise
    haters gonna hate, potatoes gonna potate

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    Quote Originally Posted by margallar View Post
    i think you should go for ac idle up, that one is capable of greater rpm raise
    100% correct.

    @uetian04 wish you all the best. I am sure with your expertise in electronics you will have it figured out in no time. Plus you will have added advantage of auto off once the temp has reached a predetermined figure.

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    The A/C idle up can take care of this, all you need is another solenoid, or add additional wires with a diodes to prevent backwash to make it work but not energize the A/C.

    it will cause the engine to idle fast - about 1500 rpm with no A/C compressor load. Release the signal to it when the engine temperature reaches 65C but put a time delay in reactivation of about 1 minute on it, this way it wont automatically turn on when the thermostat opens the first time and causes really cold coolant to quench the engine, it takes about a minute or so to equalize temperature throughout.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    The A/C idle up can take care of this, all you need is another solenoid, or add additional wires with a diodes to prevent backwash to make it work but not energize the A/C.

    it will cause the engine to idle fast - about 1500 rpm with no A/C compressor load. Release the signal to it when the engine temperature reaches 65C but put a time delay in reactivation of about 1 minute on it, this way it wont automatically turn on when the thermostat opens the first time and causes really cold coolant to quench the engine, it takes about a minute or so to equalize temperature throughout.
    Since the AC idle up solenoid is operated from -ve connection complete (+12 V direct and ground through switch) so wiring through diode will not work, I think.
    I need to add another solenoid with vac pipes to vac pod. Seems complicated little.
    I will check to see if same switch is used for, AC idle up solenoid, AC compressor, AC light and rad fan operating.
    OR i will use lights rev up solenoid as it is +ve 12 V operated (ground direct) if it provide 1300-1500 RPM when operated.
    When light are turned ON, this solenoid provide its RPM increase of 200 approx.
    !! DIY in a professional WAY!!

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    get a couple of Tee joints for the vacuum and install another solenoid and cut into the vacuum pipes and instal Tees in the vacuum pipes.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    @uetian04

    I dont want to project a pessimist opinion, though I mostly am

    Brother, if you plan to implement autochoke (or simply increase idle rpm without enrichening) using a central locking motor with your display controller, thats pretty okay since you can define various delays and get feedback from your temp sensor.

    However, if you plan to use CNG and want a carburator with built in autochoke, you might want to go to the below thread before investing.

    https://www.pakwheels.com/forums/per...tochoke-cultus

    Let me summarize my experience. With the use of Cultus on CNG, I always missed the manual choke that I could use in Khyber. It was a blessing in winters. No frequent carb cleaner sessions to free up carb linkages from gunk. No visits to CNG service centers to remove oil in the kit. No tweeking with rpm settings for winters and summers. For all the Idles, Cold Start, Normal Idle, AC on idle, fan/headlight on idle. All these jobs would result in much stable rpms in the Cultus when done properly.

    However with Khyber, no worriers, any discrepancy and you just pull that choke for a minute or two till the temp is normal. And you dont have to pull all the way. Use as per convenience and engage/pull choke as desired.


    Now, I am not saying AUTOCHOKE itself is headache. Its good. Thats why it was incorporated. However, as @Xulfiqar bhai explains in my thread, you cannot get best of both worlds (Petrol + CNG) with autchoke.

    Hope it helps.
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    The A/C idle up can take care of this, all you need is another solenoid, or add additional wires with a diodes to prevent backwash to make it work but not energize the A/C.

    it will cause the engine to idle fast - about 1500 rpm with no A/C compressor load. Release the signal to it when the engine temperature reaches 65C but put a time delay in reactivation of about 1 minute on it, this way it wont automatically turn on when the thermostat opens the first time and causes really cold coolant to quench the engine, it takes about a minute or so to equalize temperature throughout.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    get a couple of Tee joints for the vacuum and install another solenoid and cut into the vacuum pipes and instal Tees in the vacuum pipes.
    Yup. Thats the best way to use existing setup. However, like I said, with AC idle set to stabilize on CNG, Xulfiqar bhai, it wont be just 1500 rpm. It will mostly like shoot near 2000 (slightly exagerated)

    How about the headlight/ radiator fan ON circuit?? it gives small boost. Not much.
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    When providing a tee to power the same vac pod from two solenoids, keep in mind that the solenoid has a vac to air port in order to release vacuum. That is, when the solenoid is de-energized, a port in the solenoid opens that allows the section of tube between it and the pod to loose vacuum so that the pod link connected to the carb can return to its relaxed position. If you are trying to operate the same pod by teeing into the section of tubing between the pod and solenoid, when either of the solenoids is energized, rather than creating a vacuum it will suck air from the other solenoid's vac to air port.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uetian04 View Post
    Since the AC idle up solenoid is operated from -ve connection complete (+12 V direct and ground through switch) so wiring through diode will not work, I think.
    I need to add another solenoid with vac pipes to vac pod. Seems complicated little.
    I will check to see if same switch is used for, AC idle up solenoid, AC compressor, AC light and rad fan operating.
    OR i will use lights rev up solenoid as it is +ve 12 V operated (ground direct) if it provide 1300-1500 RPM when operated.
    When light are turned ON, this solenoid provide its RPM increase of 200 approx.
    @uetian04 man u need to do following things

    1) Redo ur EE Degree
    "Since the AC idle up solenoid is operated from -ve connection complete (+12 V direct and ground through switch) so wiring through diode will not work, I think."

    2) Implement this ckt
    Automatic Choke in Paki Alto -1451260

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecu_designer View Post
    @uetian04 man u need to do following things

    1) Redo ur EE Degree
    "Since the AC idle up solenoid is operated from -ve connection complete (+12 V direct and ground through switch) so wiring through diode will not work, I think."

    2) Implement this ckt
    Automatic Choke in Paki Alto -1451260

    Thanks for suggestion.

    Yes I was wrong in thinking initially but soon been reached to similar circuit in a pause and built up.
    !! DIY in a professional WAY!!

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    UPDATE:
    Finally installed self made Idle up RPM circuit when the car is cold started.


    Automatic Choke in Paki Alto -1451434

    On power up, the circuit reads the engine temperature. If the temp is less than 50 deg C then it gives the signal to AC idle up solenoid for activation and engine RPM rises to approx 1200 RPM (AC remains OFF if not turned ON) depending upon how much engine is warmed.
    It keep this stats till the temp rises above from 65 deg C (RPM at approx 1500) and then it releases the solenoid signal and RPM come down to 800.
    While testing, I started the engine, temp was below 50 deg C. It took 3-5 min to reach temp to 65 deg then AC idle up solenoid released and RPM becomes stable at 800 RPM

    One more thing, As I observed, I had required the choke when the engine is cold started on CNG. On petrol, no Idle up is required from choke. So I applied power to relay from CNG solenoid +12 V. That is to say, circuit idle only rev high when engine is cold started on CNG. If started on petrol, NO power to idle up circuit so it bypasses.
    !! DIY in a professional WAY!!

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    That was fast
    haters gonna hate, potatoes gonna potate

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