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    Thumbs up (FINALLY SOLVED) Civic 99 Drinking Petrol like Sharbat

    Salam PWs
    My civic is drinking petrol like hell. does only 300 kms per tank on highway & even less in city. The petrol needle can be felt going down while driving. there is no leakage & car moves great on petrol. no problem in driving.
    On CNG it does 200kms per 55cylinder. can u tell me how to increase petrol average. i have the advancer installed and it works. no problem on driving on CNG or PETROL. plz help

    ***EDIT***
    Problem Solved
    For all lazy people like me See Last Page


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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    the problem with keihins are that their part nos. are mixed up - your best bet is to match your old and new parts.

    If the impedance is correct (12-14 ohms) then the only thing remaining is - your ECU is allowing too much fuel in or its timed really bad, your engine can be off a timing belt tooth and not give any code because both crank and cam sensors are in the distributor.
    this is a classical example of an old theory

    putting all off the shelf parts in a car is one thing

    and knowing how they all work togather is a different game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    the problem with keihins are that their part nos. are mixed up - your best bet is to match your old and new parts.

    If the impedance is correct (12-14 ohms) then the only thing remaining is - your ECU is allowing too much fuel in or its timed really bad, your engine can be off a timing belt tooth and not give any code because both crank and cam sensors are in the distributor.
    Every D15B has a crank sensor in distributor or just the non-vtec (EXI) one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    the problem with keihins are that their part nos. are mixed up - your best bet is to match your old and new parts.

    If the impedance is correct (12-14 ohms) then the only thing remaining is - your ECU is allowing too much fuel in or its timed really bad, your engine can be off a timing belt tooth and not give any code because both crank and cam sensors are in the distributor.
    I have already checked the impedance, its 12.6 to 12.7 for all.
    When i went to the mech for diagnostics, i noted the engine timing the software was showing, it was varying from 7-11 at idle (the mark on the pulley also show the same difference with a timing gun, ihave checked myself). which i think is not a big difference. i m not sure but shouldnt a timing belt with a tooth off, show a greater timing difference?
    In an other thread of mine, a fellow PW who has a 2000 vti mentioned following may be the cause, wat do u say:

    brother go to any kabaria and ask him for blue tip injectors, which is 190cc and comes with vtec engine. and ur problem may b due to ECU transistor array as in most of cars have problem of STA461C Transistor Array.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2c View Post
    this is a classical example of an old theory

    putting all off the shelf parts in a car is one thing

    and knowing how they all work togather is a different game.
    Actually i was already apprehensive of the fact abt 190cc & bigger injectors when i went to buy the injectors. But as i mentioned earlier the shopkeepers laughed at me as i was speaking greek. they dont know abt sizes, they just know that it fits or not.

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    How can i check if my ECU is bad. is there a way to find out without swapping the ECU. caz who will lend me an ECU to make a trial.
    BTW can anyone tell me from where i can buy new injectors apart from HONDA 3S. & how much would they cost?

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    the problem with detecting timing on this engine from the "software" is that the crank and cam sensors can never go out of sync - they are both mounted in the distributor, hence if your belt if off a tooth - the distributor would never know. To remedy this Honda installed a crankshaft fluctuation sensor on the crankshaft nose on some models (but it takes 2 wire splices to fool)

    anyway

    the bit of the transistor array is also true - they do go bad and will cause excessive fuelling. If your mechanic has a live reader and he could see the timing - what was he seeing as injector duty cycle? I dont know where you can get a new ECU to test, best ask around and inquire with some good honest and proper mechanic workshops. I wouldve loved to help you out if I were in Pakistan.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Default Salman 0333-2724334

    hey Bro contact me 2morrow or day after 2morrow I am from Hyderabad nd I wud sort out ur Problem ( In Sha Allah )
    I hav stock ECU's nd Injectors as well

    CheerS !
    Floor The Throttle Enjoy The Happiness . . . . Feel Da Power !!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sam_memon View Post
    hey Bro contact me 2morrow or day after 2morrow I am from Hyderabad nd I wud sort out ur Problem ( In Sha Allah )
    I hav stock ECU's nd Injectors as well

    CheerS !
    Luv u man. will contact u today afternoon

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    Btw i spent 3 hrs yesterday on Cleaning the sensors. i did following
    1. Removed Throttle Body & cleaned
    2. Removed MAP & cleaned
    3. Removed IACV & cleaned
    4. Removed ECT sensor & cleaned
    Here are the pics

    Civic 99 Drinking Petrol like Sharbat - irfan44 albums sensorcleaning picture5328 23092011005

    Civic 99 Drinking Petrol like Sharbat - irfan44 albums sensorcleaning picture5332 23092011001

    Civic 99 Drinking Petrol like Sharbat - irfan44 albums sensorcleaning picture5331 23092011002

    Civic 99 Drinking Petrol like Sharbat - irfan44 albums sensorcleaning picture5330 23092011003

    Civic 99 Drinking Petrol like Sharbat - irfan44 albums sensorcleaning picture5329 23092011004

    Feedback
    The idle is smoother now & has increased by 100 rpm.
    Rpm used to drop with AC on CNG but now it increases

    Post Cleaning Problems
    The idle is smooth but it was very eratic when i started the first time. but almost settled down now.
    The real problem is that now when i drive the car & releases acceleration/ Press clutch / make it neutral, the rpm stays at about 1200 for about some time & if i dont press acceleration again for abt 30-40 secs it comes to normal 800.
    But when the car is stopped or is at hault it imediately comes to normal 800.
    1 more thing while moving when i press brake & clutch together, i feel that rpm increases sometimes
    Nothing serious but can u comment.

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    i met salman yesterday. he is a learned man. we narrowed down the following to be checked from karachi:
    1. fuel return line
    2. fuel pressure regulator
    3. map sensor

    Another thing which we noticed was that when we disconnect the MAP sensor the vehicle ran as usual, no jerking,absolutely nothing. which was weird. disconnecting map also did not light up the CEL until the engine was running for a few seconds

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    Seems to me your ECU isn't working as it should. did you swap ECU ?

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    disconnecting map sensor has no effect? bad wiring (look for some desi fankari somewhere) or bad ECU.

    the condition of disconnecting MAP having no effect is your cause for excessive fuel consumption. And the idle speed control charecteristics are exactly correct. You should get down to tracing wiring and shorts in the map sensor wiring.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    @vyrus
    No i havnt tried swapping the ECU yet. will do when i find one.

    @Xulfiqar
    Yeh we doubted the same wiring issue as SALMAN told me his experience with a bad O2 sensor where the electrician installed some sort of "TIMER" to get rid of the CEL showing up.
    Will surely try to locate any wiring issues as per the manual.

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    the timer is installed to fool the driver that the CEL is correctly working Honda style.

    the relay installed by cheeta electricians is the fooled ground to activate the O2 sensor heater in a 4 wire sensor, if the ECU does not detect a 1 amp draw at the HT line it will set the O2 sensor heater circuit code. electricians kill this by installing a relay whose coil places that 1 amp load or even sometimes a bulb.

    As Pakistani cars have a trim pot instead of the sensor the heater circuit is not built into the ECU, while jap ECUs have it.

    Remove the wiring connectors at the ECU and MAP sensor and check, you will usually find the faults about 6 or 8 inches from the MAP sensor wiring, our lovely CNG techs cut the wiring for advancers right here.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Ok thnx i will check.
    BTW when i installed the EMULATOR, the yel/blk wires of all the injectors were cut & bundled into 1 wire, then connected to a yellow wire from the CNG loom. i disconnected the CNG loom yel wire & joined back the yel/blk wires to injectors & then installed the EMULATOR by connecting original injector holders to EMULATOR holders & EMULATOR holders to injectors.
    I need to know the origin of the yellow wire in CNG loom. is there a possibility that some kind of relay is installed to redirect the injector power to that yellow wire & etc etc.

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    I found out another thing 2day. it may b 1 of the problem areas.
    i checked the voltage on my injector holders with switch ON engine OFF & found this:
    1. 1 wire in every holder has 11.69 volts (which is ok, i suppose)
    2. 2nd wire in injector no 1 holder also have 11.69 volts (which is not ok, i think)
    3. 2nd wire in injector no 2 holder also has 11.69 volts not constantly but intermittently another problem, i suppose)
    4. 2nd wire on injector no 3&4 has 0 voltage (again ok)
    So wat do u say. does this mean that injector no 1&2 has a shorted wiring & causing them to be always open.
    am i right?

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    the injectors should have one wire with battery voltage +ve and the other side should be grounded to earth by the injector coupler in the ECU.

    take an LED with resistor and put it in the injector wiring plug in the correct polarity, disable the ignition coil somehow and crank the engine over - the LEF should flash on every pulse, do not try it with a test lamp as it cannot respond fast enough and if you use a larger bulb you may also damage the ECU.

    The voltage showing up in the injector ground circuits is not a good sign, it will literally flood out the inlet manifold and engine to a point of running 1 km/lit or less or even hydraulic lock the engine. I thinks the wiring is severely damaged or the ECU is royally jacked up.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by irfan44 View Post
    Ok thnx i will check.
    BTW when i installed the EMULATOR, the yel/blk wires of all the injectors were cut & bundled into 1 wire, then connected to a yellow wire from the CNG loom. i disconnected the CNG loom yel wire & joined back the yel/blk wires to injectors & then installed the EMULATOR by connecting original injector holders to EMULATOR holders & EMULATOR holders to injectors.
    I need to know the origin of the yellow wire in CNG loom. is there a possibility that some kind of relay is installed to redirect the injector power to that yellow wire & etc etc.
    that yellow/blk wire is the main power circuit for the injectors and originates from the main relay beside the glovebox, the emulator blocks this by blocking out the positive supply of the injectors so that they do not work. the negative supply (ECU) trigger is never cut.

    if you see positive voltage at the injectors this wire is OK, There is another symptom when the ECU fails, the injectors hang open as the the coupler constantly routes ground to the injectors as if the ECU were off, which when the key is turned on the circuit completes when the injectors get positive supply.

    But please sort out the map sensor not being picked up as an error in the ECU, if that sensor input is not present, your ECU will never control any fuelling. Infact it should be backfiring too.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    that yellow/blk wire is the main power circuit for the injectors and originates from the main relay beside the glovebox, the emulator blocks this by blocking out the positive supply of the injectors so that they do not work. the negative supply (ECU) trigger is never cut.

    if you see positive voltage at the injectors this wire is OK, There is another symptom when the ECU fails, the injectors hang open as the the coupler constantly routes ground to the injectors as if the ECU were off, which when the key is turned on the circuit completes when the injectors get positive supply.

    But please sort out the map sensor not being picked up as an error in the ECU, if that sensor input is not present, your ECU will never control any fuelling. Infact it should be backfiring too.
    Plz come on the summry of main point ,what u r saying..............
    What an Idea SIR G.......

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    read it again, I wrote the ylw/blk wire is the main +ve supply to the injectors which originates from the main relay.

    In the second bit, I wrote the ECU injector coupler grounds the circuit when it switches off, if this circuit goes bad - the injectors will flood the engine when the main ignition key is switched on as the main relay supplies positive to the injectors.

    The actual problem of this car is that the owner is not seeing any error for MAP sensor even when disconnected - this ECU relies completely on the map sensor input for regulating injector duty cycle.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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