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Thread: Civic 99 Grounding Issue (Pivot design)

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    Default Civic 99 Grounding Issue (Pivot design)

    Equipment:
    Civic 99
    D15B VTEC
    Factory ECU
    Factory A/T
    JVC headunit
    V12 Amp
    Pioneer 6915 speakers
    Earthing cables used: 30mm (for negative terminal to strut tower) and 26mm for all other connections.

    In an attempt to make my car perform better, I recently experimented with a better grounding system.

    PHASE 1:
    First I upgraded the 3 stock earthing connections. That made a slight improvement in the car's responsiveness (acceleration and shifting).

    Improvements Noted:
    1. No more blinking/dimming in dashboard lights.
    2. 1-2% improvement in acceleration and responsiveness.

    Persisting Problem:
    1. Low buzzing sound from speakers (with acceleration).

    PHASE 2:
    This morning I added an additional grounding kit which I made based on the Pivot Raizin-E instructions (pic attached).

    Grounding Method:
    1. Battery Negative Terminal to Driver Side Strut.
    2. Negative Terminal to Alternator.
    3. Negative Terminal to Intake/Engine Cylinder Head Nut.
    4. Cylinder Head to Distributor.
    5. Negative Terminal to Bulk Head.
    6. Bulk Head to Body Earth (Side Strut) on passenger side.

    Improvement Noted:
    1. Decrease in gearshift jerk/shock.

    Problems:
    1. Low buzzing sound from speakers.
    2. Dashboard Gear Indication Lights (P/R/N/D4/D3/2) blink/dim with the indicators.
    3. Some acceleration may also be suffering, but has not been that noticeable.

    Can someone help me fix what I am doing wrong? I'll post pictures of my setup in a couple of hours.Civic 99 Grounding Issue Pivot design -328176


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    Sir jee do you have Pioneer Head Unit ? If YES then maybe thats your Culprit .. if you have Amplifier installed ?
    Respect comes from fear.

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    i'm tAlKING ABOUT speaker WHINE. which you wrote in problem.
    Respect comes from fear.

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    JVC head unit with a 2 channel V12 amp, but i have the same "whine" that normally comes from a pioneer unit.

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    you have joints in wiring, take car to good electrician and tell him the problem. he will check wires and replace the ones with joints.

    Most of the problems will be solved. including speaker whin sound.
    ,,, unless you know the track, you're not good enough to sit behind the wheel." K T

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    @levin: yeah there are quite a few joints here and there in my engine bay. i shall look into it. btw... except for the whine, there werent any blinking problems when i upgraded the stock earthing connections to thicker wires.

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    any other observations?

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    the dimming of the gear indicators cannot be helped, the whole dash gauges is sourced from one power line, and every signal is just a negative trigger.

    For whine, you need to check the spark plug cables for (awesome million hp unlimited mm cables) - if they are low impedance you will suffer from radio noise, not only in the car audio but also in the ECU. You need 15Kohms cables for your spark plugs.

    The other bit that induces whine and noise is radio amplification from power transfer, if the RC are near any power line specially the amp - it will induce noise - run them on the other side of the car, to get best grounding for your amplifier take a similar size wire as the positive and run to the battery negative or negative power block.

    The awesome raizen etc ground kit is actually a placebo.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    the dimming of the gear indicators cannot be helped, the whole dash gauges is sourced from one power line, and every signal is just a negative trigger.

    For whine, you need to check the spark plug cables for (awesome million hp unlimited mm cables) - if they are low impedance you will suffer from radio noise, not only in the car audio but also in the ECU. You need 15Kohms cables for your spark plugs.

    The other bit that induces whine and noise is radio amplification from power transfer, if the RC are near any power line specially the amp - it will induce noise - run them on the other side of the car, to get best grounding for your amplifier take a similar size wire as the positive and run to the battery negative or negative power block.

    The awesome raizen etc ground kit is actually a placebo.
    I have new ultima 8mm plug wires (dunno the impedance, but will check).
    Will definitely need to redo the amp power line (its run with the speaker cables).

    Placebo? Ouch! Spent a whole afternoon working on it. Plus I read tons of posts/articles online before I took it up. Anyhow, I observed results. Will see if a tuner can verify them. Not that I agree with you on the placebo bit. It worked for my car (which has tons of neglect all over it). Plus there are tons of posts all over the internet using the same logic. Even 2 of the "Big 3" factory grounds use the same connection logic.

    Anyhow, for those wanting to do some grounding on their cars, I'd suggest upgrading the "Battery Negative Terminal to Body/Strut" cable to 30mm and the other factory grounds to 26mm. Amplifier cable can also be used instead of 26mm but its thinner than what I chose. Just a simple upgrade will yield results, specially for older cars.

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    I was thinking of installing the Mega Raizin unit, but now I feel no need. Of course I havent checked using a voltmeter... but i will do so tomorrow and post results. Anyone know of what I need to check other than the battery? Specific points maybe?

    (sorry, i am a complete noob, but am curious as heck!)

    Also, can anyone suggest a really good electrician in karachi to have my electrical wires replaced?

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    @OP
    My apologies but its going to be an explanation of PLACEBO.

    Help me out in understanding one thing. How is this Stabilizer going to improve performance in any way. You actually are doing the big two. The condenser within its circuitry may eliminate some emf but i dont see why the ECU would get effected by that and would start controlling the engine in a more performance oriented way. The ignition cables (even stock) are capable of doing that to a certain extent with out much issues.

    Oh i get it. You want to stabilize the 12V circuitry so that the HT circuit doesnt lose its potential during shiftings and lower rpms. Perfectly understandable. But regarding the claim that the kit may stabilize volts, it cannot. You have only two ways of doing that. Intall a big CAP in parallel to battery rated in Farads and i dont see those fancy caps in Raizin are capable of doing that. If you look in car audio forums, you would see how a cap with 1-2 Farads capacity looks like.
    The other way is to control the alternator rotor coil regulator by some external way. So that when engine idles and you still have alot of electrical load, there is 14.4 volts at your disposal. But that regulator is built into the alternator housing. You have to swap it with an aftermarket one that offers external control.

    All i am saying is, you may want to enjoy the product to its dregs but to the basic laws of electronics and electricals, it aint worth it.
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    by using thick wires for the negative circuit you are simply creating large voltage drop areas in the system. 26 sqmm cable is used by the 1.0 KW starter on your engine. And holds up pretty well.

    for your whole grounding circuit the best is to work it as a main and branch system with excellent wires and lugs - pure copper or silver (chandi) not the aluminium that our desi electricians refer to as silver. One solid wire to the transmission casing near the starter and a wire branched from it via solder connection and going to the body somewhere neatly. One from the firewall to the engine, ideally one from the firewall to the bonnet (to prevent edge electrolysis of the bonnet and good ground to the front too. I also add a separate smallish ground to the alternator plate/ear of some engines, if for some reason I see irregular behaviour by the alternator.

    If you have installed an amp you need to run a negative cable from it to the battery or the point where the negative branch is bolted to, not bolted to the seat mount bolt.

    Reroute your stereo RC cables to one corner of the car and power/ground to the other so they dont pickup any stray noise, Also put the original ignition cables back - they are suppression type - and were installed by Honda motor co. Japan to rid of stray radio noise that is sometimes also lethal for the ECU and other electronics, they even shielded the 3 sensor wire pairs from the distributor to the ECU so they dont cross talk and fudge up the separate signals and also dont get affected by any ignition noise by the high voltage transfer from the ignition cables.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    by using thick wires for the negative circuit you are simply creating large voltage drop areas in the system. 26 sqmm cable is used by the 1.0 KW starter on your engine. And holds up pretty well.

    for your whole grounding circuit the best is to work it as a main and branch system with excellent wires and lugs - pure copper or silver (chandi) not the aluminium that our desi electricians refer to as silver. One solid wire to the transmission casing near the starter and a wire branched from it via solder connection and going to the body somewhere neatly. One from the firewall to the engine, ideally one from the firewall to the bonnet (to prevent edge electrolysis of the bonnet and good ground to the front too. I also add a separate smallish ground to the alternator plate/ear of some engines, if for some reason I see irregular behaviour by the alternator.

    If you have installed an amp you need to run a negative cable from it to the battery or the point where the negative branch is bolted to, not bolted to the seat mount bolt.

    Reroute your stereo RC cables to one corner of the car and power/ground to the other so they dont pickup any stray noise, Also put the original ignition cables back - they are suppression type - and were installed by Honda motor co. Japan to rid of stray radio noise that is sometimes also lethal for the ECU and other electronics, they even shielded the 3 sensor wire pairs from the distributor to the ECU so they dont cross talk and fudge up the separate signals and also dont get affected by any ignition noise by the high voltage transfer from the ignition cables.
    I wont pretend to know much about this, cuz i really dont. What you say makes sense (the little that I understand from it). The issue was the original grounding wires were deteriorated/rusting. None of the wires I found had any real labelling on them. The regular cable used to power amps is 10 or 12mm, correct? Should I revert to using those cables? Also, I want to check the voltage at various points to make sure the cables I use are doing their job. Where should I check?

    By using what I did my car now runs a lot smoother, doesnt feel heavy with the AC on (earlier it felt like its carrying 6 ppl whenever i turned the AC on). Bass pumps stopped dimming the dash lights. Ignition turns quicker. However, I really want to make sure the heavy gauge wires and the points I selected arent going to mess with the car's systems in the short or long run. Would posting pictures help you better diagnose the situation?

    As for the amp power cable running with the stereo cables... I hear and obey! Will also check its grounding.

    As for Raizin, in terms of the ECU, i understand that it is meant to reduce signal noise and ascertain changes in voltage are gradual. Correct?

    Thanks btw... appreciate it.

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    Get yr wires straight. volt stabilizer cannot help you if yr wires are weak!!!!!!!

    pivot or some other brand
    ,,, unless you know the track, you're not good enough to sit behind the wheel." K T

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    Quote Originally Posted by xsxd View Post
    I wont pretend to know much about this, cuz i really dont. What you say makes sense (the little that I understand from it). The issue was the original grounding wires were deteriorated/rusting. None of the wires I found had any real labelling on them. The regular cable used to power amps is 10 or 12mm, correct? Should I revert to using those cables? Also, I want to check the voltage at various points to make sure the cables I use are doing their job. Where should I check?

    By using what I did my car now runs a lot smoother, doesnt feel heavy with the AC on (earlier it felt like its carrying 6 ppl whenever i turned the AC on). Bass pumps stopped dimming the dash lights. Ignition turns quicker. However, I really want to make sure the heavy gauge wires and the points I selected arent going to mess with the car's systems in the short or long run. Would posting pictures help you better diagnose the situation?

    As for the amp power cable running with the stereo cables... I hear and obey! Will also check its grounding.

    As for Raizin, in terms of the ECU, i understand that it is meant to reduce signal noise and ascertain changes in voltage are gradual. Correct?

    Thanks btw... appreciate it.
    The problem in your model civic is that Honda used a cheap small piece of wire to attach negative to the car and relies on the equally small and thin ground wire on the transmission case to transfer current. Its borderline in any case - and gets worse with being in Pakistan as its gets subjected to grease, dirt, rust etc. Thats why I wrote you need a direct wire from the battery negative to the transmission case and a branch wire from it to the mounting point where honda put the little ground cable. BEST juice transfer you can get. The cylinder head is grounded as its bolted to the block which is bolted to the transmission and it does not have any heavy amp transfer to required massive ground wires.

    btw - if you had problems in driving due to bad grounds, then you would also have had serious problems in starting your engine and also in charging the battery.

    To understand filtering/stablizing of the voltage in your cars electric circuits, you have an alternator that is producing three phase AC current which then passes via a diode bridge that converts it to DC and goes to the battery etc. The battery also acts like a giant high capacity stabiliser that soaks up stray AC signals from the alternator. The alternator has an internal /external voltage regulator that keeps the charging system in check and increase the output of the alternator to keep up with the load demands.

    To understand radio noise created by AC current - consider the high voltage power lines that you see, when they are repaired and one line is shut off - it still has 8000V in it that its picking up via the other live line. Same thing happens in "Awesome brand low impedance spark plug cables" - When the ignition coil steps up voltage at its turn rate.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    The problem in your model civic is that Honda used a cheap small piece of wire to attach negative to the car and relies on the equally small and thin ground wire on the transmission case to transfer current. Its borderline in any case - and gets worse with being in Pakistan as its gets subjected to grease, dirt, rust etc. Thats why I wrote you need a direct wire from the battery negative to the transmission case and a branch wire from it to the mounting point where honda put the little ground cable. BEST juice transfer you can get. The cylinder head is grounded as its bolted to the block which is bolted to the transmission and it does not have any heavy amp transfer to required massive ground wires.

    btw - if you had problems in driving due to bad grounds, then you would also have had serious problems in starting your engine and also in charging the battery.

    To understand filtering/stablizing of the voltage in your cars electric circuits, you have an alternator that is producing three phase AC current which then passes via a diode bridge that converts it to DC and goes to the battery etc. The battery also acts like a giant high capacity stabiliser that soaks up stray AC signals from the alternator. The alternator has an internal /external voltage regulator that keeps the charging system in check and increase the output of the alternator to keep up with the load demands.

    To understand radio noise created by AC current - consider the high voltage power lines that you see, when they are repaired and one line is shut off - it still has 8000V in it that its picking up via the other live line. Same thing happens in "Awesome brand low impedance spark plug cables" - When the ignition coil steps up voltage at its turn rate.
    So i should remove the following grounds?
    1. Battery Negative to Firewall
    2. Firewall to Passenger Side Strut Tower.
    3. Battery Negative to top bolt on Distributor.
    4. Battery Negative to Alternator.

    I am still trying to figure out which wire that "little ground cable" is.

    The one's I replaced were:
    a. Battery Negative to Driver Side Strut Tower.
    b. Transmission to somewhere (cant seem to remember where the other end was).

    There's also a very thin wire attached to the frame very close to the passenger-side headlight. I didnt touch it since it seemed to be connected to a mesh of other wires. Do you know wht that is?

    And thanks. Very insightful, this conversation of ours.

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    Honda recommends following procedure for checking the working of Spark plug cables in the factory service manual:
    1. Remove the spark plug wires.
    2. with an ohm/voltmeter check resistance of each cable by attaching both voltmeter leads on each side of cable.
    3. the resistance should be less than 25 Ohms.
    4. the lesser the better.

    For checking the efficiency of ur earthing/ grounding, following is the procedure:
    1. Get an ohm meter/voltmeter.
    2. set it to lowest ohm reading range. then touch both leads to each other. note the reading. it will be the internal resistance of the meter u r using & u will have to subtract it from the subsequent readings u take.
    3. detect the ground cable u want to check
    4. connect 1 lead of the ohm meter to the place from where the ground cable is originating (e.g. from engine block etc) & connect 2nd lead of ohm meter to battery -ve terminal.
    5. Note the reading in that way for every grounding cable.
    6. The readings should be close to "zero". 0.1-0.2 is acceptable.\ but preferably zero.
    7. a higher reading means that either ur ground cable itself is of higher resistance
    or the connections needs to b cleaned with a sand paper.

    Yaar filhal itna kafi hai. meri chai thandi ho rahi hai......

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    @xulfiqar
    i need a little clarification on load management by alternator. i think ELD is responsible for detecting the electric load & change alternator output through ecu.
    am i right? but to my knowledge these models in pakistan dont hav ELD so alternator is always running on full load like a mehran.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irfan44 View Post
    Honda recommends following procedure for checking the working of Spark plug cables in the factory service manual:
    1. Remove the spark plug wires.
    2. with an ohm/voltmeter check resistance of each cable by attaching both voltmeter leads on each side of cable.
    3. the resistance should be less than 25 Ohms.
    4. the lesser the better.

    For checking the efficiency of ur earthing/ grounding, following is the procedure:
    1. Get an ohm meter/voltmeter.
    2. set it to lowest ohm reading range. then touch both leads to each other. note the reading. it will be the internal resistance of the meter u r using & u will have to subtract it from the subsequent readings u take.
    3. detect the ground cable u want to check
    4. connect 1 lead of the ohm meter to the place from where the ground cable is originating (e.g. from engine block etc) & connect 2nd lead of ohm meter to battery -ve terminal.
    5. Note the reading in that way for every grounding cable.
    6. The readings should be close to "zero". 0.1-0.2 is acceptable.\ but preferably zero.
    7. a higher reading means that either ur ground cable itself is of higher resistance
    or the connections needs to b cleaned with a sand paper.

    Yaar filhal itna kafi hai. meri chai thandi ho rahi hai......
    Cheers, mate!

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    Quote Originally Posted by irfan44 View Post
    @xulfiqar
    i need a little clarification on load management by alternator. i think ELD is responsible for detecting the electric load & change alternator output through ecu.
    am i right? but to my knowledge these models in pakistan dont hav ELD so alternator is always running on full load like a mehran.
    ELD is to raise idle speed to counteract high loads at idle speed. At above idle speed it does not function. (thats why your honda drops 50 to 100 rpm when the cooling fan kicks or headlights come on - the old Khyber also had an ELD - it raised 100 rpm with headlights/cooling fan or defogger

    The load part of the alternator is dictated by the voltage regulator and alternator speed. It takes reference from the battery positive and sees difference to negative for voltage drop and works accordingly to keep the battery topped at the correct voltage and keeps all the current suckers plenty happy
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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