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Thread: Honda Civic - 2000 Misfiring Injector / ECM / Wiring Issue Troubleshooting

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    Default Honda Civic - 2000 Misfiring Injector / ECM / Wiring Issue Troubleshooting

    Dear All,

    I want to share an issue i faced today and require your opinion on what to conclude.

    Car:
    Honda Civic VTI - 2000, Automatic Transmission, Driven on Petrol but also has CNG installed.

    Symptom: Car was not accelerating properly and miss-firing. No check-light was showing up during the issue.

    Initial-Troubleshooting
    On some troubleshooting we discovered that injector # 1 (right most when viewed from front of engine) was not getting pulse.

    Action: Taken to electrician

    Further troubleshooting:
    1- Electrician checks and declares that wiring is ok
    2- Electrician checks ECU and says there is is something wrong with ECU.

    Fixing options:

    1- Change ECU.
    2- Fix via taking pulse from another injector and remove CNG wiring.

    Temporarily Fixed using option 2 without removing CNG wiring.

    Current condition:
    Engine is smooth there is no misfiring.

    Help Required for conclusion:
    I am wondering, if it is possible to grab a connection from another injector pulse and having car run without misfire or it is just that the electrician fearing that he might not get a better reward ended up telling something big and then fixing some loose wire i am confused and require help from members who might be knowledgeable in such issues.

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    No, it is not OK to 'grab' a signal from another injector to make up for the missing signal.
    Signals from the ECU are timed accordingly using inputs from various sensors for each injector relatively.
    And yes, it is possible to 'grab' pulse from another injector, only a piece of wire is needed but this is a WRONGGGG PRACTICE because nothing of the electrician is at stake!!!

    If the wiring is OK and it is sure that the ECU has to replaced, I would say go ahead and replace it, your temporary fix is in simple words: a long term serious damage to the engine
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    @syncview

    you are correct, i also agree that it is not a solution.

    but i am confused, first i am not able to understand
    1-how come engine is running fine with this grabbing of pulse? there must be some symptom but everything looks fine.
    2-my original question was.... is it that i have been told of wrong diagnosis? sometimes people tell you bigger problem and then just place a loose connector to get rid of issue. how do i investigate it properly?

    another information:
    while all the issue was going on, the check light never shown up. infact i was curious that clearly there was an issue but checklight was not showing up. it would show up on start and go away after a second or two.

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    @syncview

    sir you are correct. but my confusion is that was is really a case of bad ecu or he just fixed some loose wire but told me something else just to get more money.

    because right now everything is showing up smooth and that is confusing me.

    need further help if anyone can come up with some suggestion in how to conclude this further.

  5. 27-01-2014, 09:07 AM

    PakWheeler


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    anybody .... need guidance if they know some reliable person in islamabad for getting the troubleshooting done to know exactly what is the actual situation?

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    @syncview @Xulfiqar @SER_GTR

    we checked the whole wiring and ECU PINS for signals and found that it was really one injector signal missing from the designated pin. I am posting pictures for information of others who might be interested.

    For now i am being told (initial research), Pakistani ECU (Rs. 15000) or Japanese ECU (Rs. 5000) can be put in as a replacement but there is big difference in price ... will see if i can get a better deal. I will also explore if the ECU can be repaired.

    Anyone having knowledge may contribute. Thanks in advance.

    ECU Model Information


    Honda Civic  2000 Misfiring Injector  ECM  Wiring Issue Troubleshooting -1346216

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    Connectors (A,B,C, N/A)

    Honda Civic  2000 Misfiring Injector  ECM  Wiring Issue Troubleshooting -1346217

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    ECU Model Information

    Honda Civic  2000 Misfiring Injector  ECM  Wiring Issue Troubleshooting -1346218

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    Front side of ECU

    Honda Civic  2000 Misfiring Injector  ECM  Wiring Issue Troubleshooting -1346219

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    Back Side of ECU (noticed something wrong with a printed circuit on the bottom left)

    Honda Civic  2000 Misfiring Injector  ECM  Wiring Issue Troubleshooting -1346220

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    do you have an 'advancer' installed?
    That is most probably the reason the check light didn't show up, it kind of fools the ecu that injectors are working as they should

    plus, get your advancer and its wiring that goes to the injectors checked as well, it could also have damaged the ECU


    Has this ECU ever been opened before?

    It seems like someone scraped something, bottom left or the third quadrant area
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    Wow, your electrician said, it’s an issue with ECU and you believed him. What would possibly go wrong with ECU and diagnosis goes like this, if you follow it properly.

    1. Remove individual ignition coils to see if vehicle collapses on idle rpm or not, if it does not then you already caught the problem. Try to swap the ignition coils to see if it still collapses on same cylinder.
    2. Remove injectors wiring to again see its affect.
    3. Comparing the performances in cng and petrol as that would clearly highlight an issue either with injectors or ignition coils.
    4. If all is ok, then next step is injectors cleaning.
    5. Fuel pressure testing.
    6. Temperature reading on coolant temperature sensor and inlet air temperature sensor to see if its values are within range or not.
    7. By default, plugs cleanup or replacement.
    8. PCV valve testing to see, if it’s not stuck open.
    9. Clogged fuel filter but this will be highlighted if pressure reading are bad and will take you into another direction mostly to do with fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter etc.
    10. Last of all, LTFT and STFT will tell you everything about if vehicle is running lean or rich. That may have something to do with bad oxygen sensor, clogged injectors or fuel line.



    in your case, try to swap the injectors.

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    check continuity from each injector socket to the ECU, once all is seen as "through and clean" - then test the other pin in the socket for 12V positive - it should be a full 12V +ve - if you see it then you only can condemn the ECU.

    usually its a cut up 12V wire that was butchered, nitto taped, hacked to work in classic Pakistani repair fashion.
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    @syncview

    sir, thanks for reply.

    i dont see visually any advancer installed. but as per technician ---- > is car ma is tarha ki cheez ka error nahi ata.

    I think ECU looks like opened but i am not sure about it, i am not the first person to utilize the car. But i seen a mark on board with a red marker.....


    and yes there is something wrong in the last picture bottom left corner. we tried to bypass and connect the circuits using a wire but it wasnt useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by talhawaleed View Post
    Wow, your electrician said, it’s an issue with ECU and you believed him. What would possibly go wrong with ECU and diagnosis goes like this, if you follow it properly.

    1. Remove individual ignition coils to see if vehicle collapses on idle rpm or not, if it does not then you already caught the problem. Try to swap the ignition coils to see if it still collapses on same cylinder.
    2. Remove injectors wiring to again see its affect.
    3. Comparing the performances in cng and petrol as that would clearly highlight an issue either with injectors or ignition coils.
    4. If all is ok, then next step is injectors cleaning.
    5. Fuel pressure testing.
    6. Temperature reading on coolant temperature sensor and inlet air temperature sensor to see if its values are within range or not.
    7. By default, plugs cleanup or replacement.
    8. PCV valve testing to see, if it’s not stuck open.
    9. Clogged fuel filter but this will be highlighted if pressure reading are bad and will take you into another direction mostly to do with fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel filter etc.
    10. Last of all, LTFT and STFT will tell you everything about if vehicle is running lean or rich. That may have something to do with bad oxygen sensor, clogged injectors or fuel line.



    in your case, try to swap the injectors.
    @talhawaleed sir i am trying to diagnose.

    i will share in detail what we did once i individually reply to everyone's response.


    1- we did this procedure (first two in your list) we identified that injectors were ok there was no pulse in first injector input / wiring.

    2- Currently we have CNG disconnected, but right now we have verified that injectors are ok

    3- we also did fuel pressure testing, pressure wasnt good, we changed the fuel pump which resolved a pending issue of delayed start.

    4- we havent done this procedure of checking coolant temperature. need a little guidance how to do that.

    5- we changed the plugs as well.

    6- havent checked PCV valve... will do this on saturday.

    7- we changed the fuel filter and fuel pump owing to other issues.

    8 - please guide me with LTFT / STFT (if some link is available i will read and follow the procedure
    thanks a lot for detailed help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    check continuity from each injector socket to the ECU, once all is seen as "through and clean" - then test the other pin in the socket for 12V positive - it should be a full 12V +ve - if you see it then you only can condemn the ECU.

    usually its a cut up 12V wire that was butchered, nitto taped, hacked to work in classic Pakistani repair fashion.
    @Xulfiqar

    Thanks sir for your help.

    last troubleshooting may i went to another electrician. he checked the continuity and confirmed to me that the first electrician diagnosed properly.

    both of them did the procedure which you mentioned with one difference, they dont measure voltage but use a bulb to detect current.

    actually a lot of people lie here to make money that is why when a fault is diagnosed which is costly. we tend to confirm it twice before condemning the parts which are installed in car.

    this was the same reason i posted in thread requiring help from people here.

    right now we are on a stage where we have finally declared the ECU as culprit because its not generating pulse on PIN-11 Connector B which is for INJ1. All other pins are giving the pulse.

    issue is now i am not sure, go for a change (either Pakistani ECU (taken from locally assembled cars )or Japanese ) or repair which i am not hopeful about .... will require guidance from members who giving there valuable attention to the thread.

    regards,

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    dear all,
    thanks for your contribution to my issue, i will followup with the suggestions and act upon them on weekend and update you all.
    it looks like i will be spotting more issues because the car is totally messed up with lots of local hacks and i am fixing it despite everyone's advice to get rid of the car. Dont know how long and what it will take but i am fixing this thing as a challenge.

    The ecu was blown up due to wiring cut and then somehow the wire was short with some others.
    I will try to post more pictures as soon as i spot results of "USTADI" shown on this car's wiring.

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    now while you're at it, check all of the wiring, replace as needed...
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobym View Post
    @Xulfiqar

    Thanks sir for your help.

    last troubleshooting may i went to another electrician. he checked the continuity and confirmed to me that the first electrician diagnosed properly.

    both of them did the procedure which you mentioned with one difference, they dont measure voltage but use a bulb to detect current.

    actually a lot of people lie here to make money that is why when a fault is diagnosed which is costly. we tend to confirm it twice before condemning the parts which are installed in car.

    this was the same reason i posted in thread requiring help from people here.

    right now we are on a stage where we have finally declared the ECU as culprit because its not generating pulse on PIN-11 Connector B which is for INJ1. All other pins are giving the pulse.

    issue is now i am not sure, go for a change (either Pakistani ECU (taken from locally assembled cars )or Japanese ) or repair which i am not hopeful about .... will require guidance from members who giving there valuable attention to the thread.

    regards,

    If you have traced the injectors wiring till ECU then verify that you are looking at the correct wiring and that you are testing things at ECU.

    Normally ECU does not goes bad like this. Be sure, that you are looking at the right wirings.

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    @mobym ECU's are not that easy to go bad. Check both terminals, check injectors, check ground and what i think is its 90% chance of bad connection. Dont just spend money on buying ECU, If you were in lahore i could help you as your car is odb2b (as ECU Pic says) i have one spare. You could check to verify it. Just make sure its not connection problem. Dont 100 percent rely on these electric guys they are not that good at debugging.
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