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Thread: Civic suspension work

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    Default Civic suspension work

    Hi guys, I'm here since ages, been a silent daily visitor.

    To my question, my civic suspension isn't good, when I push brakes when the car is at around 120+ (civic 96 D15B), the car just start vibrating and feels like going back and forth, tho it's very fine while accelerating.

    AFAIK, my cars suspension is completely gone, I lack knowledge about suspension, what do I need to get my car's suspension completely redone, I'm also interested in lowering my ride, COILOVERS preferred. I reside in Karachi BTW.

    Thanks and waiting for reply.

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    do some effort & read threads you will get an answer mate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter_khanz View Post
    Hi guys, I'm here since ages, been a silent daily visitor.

    To my question, my civic suspension isn't good, when I push brakes when the car is at around 120+ (civic 96 D15B), the car just start vibrating and feels like going back and forth, tho it's very fine while accelerating.

    AFAIK, my cars suspension is completely gone, I lack knowledge about suspension, what do I need to get my car's suspension completely redone, I'm also interested in lowering my ride, COILOVERS preferred. I reside in Karachi BTW.

    Thanks and waiting for reply.
    Do you feel the vibration in the steering wheel? And has this problem started since or a few months after you had the front brake pads replaced? What makes you think the suspension is completely gone? Other than the symptoms you have mentioned (which I don't think are suspension related) what else?

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    Respected Abbasi saheb please carefully read the 2nd & 3rd line posted by the member and in rest of post you can smilingly understand what is in his mind
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    Quote Originally Posted by capsat View Post
    Respected Abbasi saheb please carefully read the 2nd & 3rd line posted by the member and in rest of post you can smilingly understand what is in his mind
    Yes I know exactly what he is planning to do. But the problem of jerking while braking is from warped front brake rotors. That happens when the local Ustaad does rotor machining as a standard part of a pad replacement job.

    If my hunch is right and indeed he does have warped rotors, no mater how low he takes his ride or replace all sorts of bushes and links, it will continue to shimmy and shake upon application of brakes

    My battery of questions were intended to get the OP thinking about the problem and work to the root of it

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    Do you feel the vibration in the steering wheel? And has this problem started since or a few months after you had the front brake pads replaced? What makes you think the suspension is completely gone? Other than the symptoms you have mentioned (which I don't think are suspension related) what else?
    Sir I'm facing the same problem with my car. I got the brake pads and rotors replaced due to steering vibration issue.
    Everything was going fine for a month and now that stupid steering vibration is back again and steering vibrates when brakes are applied on speeds above 60km/h. What should I do next? I'm planning to get disks tooled this time and change brake pads again as I have to drive on long routes and this issue annoys me a lot.

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    I had the same problem thrice in my 2000 civic. Used to be the reason of discs. Used to tool them and the problem vanished. But reappeared after like 4-5 months. The mechanic said its because the discs are old and too worn out. If u change them then the problem wont come that easily.

    Actually its caused when you have been driving for a while and the discs are hot and then u pass through some standing water like in rain water standing somwhere. The hot discs through cold water causes it to misallign.
    Speed Costs Money... How Fast Can U Afford To Drive...???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk_KingpiN View Post
    Sir I'm facing the same problem with my car. I got the brake pads and rotors replaced due to steering vibration issue.
    Everything was going fine for a month and now that stupid steering vibration is back again and steering vibrates when brakes are applied on speeds above 60km/h. What should I do next? I'm planning to get disks tooled this time and change brake pads again as I have to drive on long routes and this issue annoys me a lot.
    Is your car a Mehran? I read somewhere on Pakwheels that the quality of Mehran rotors is not good. They get warped easily. If you car is not a Mehran, did you fit OEM rotors or after market replacements? Both reasons for warped rotors is mentioned below. However in your case you fitted new ones so we can rule out due to being worn/thin leaving just quality issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by SaadMehboob View Post
    I had the same problem thrice in my 2000 civic. Used to be the reason of discs. Used to tool them and the problem vanished. But reappeared after like 4-5 months. The mechanic said its because the discs are old and too worn out. If u change them then the problem wont come that easily.

    Actually its caused when you have been driving for a while and the discs are hot and then u pass through some standing water like in rain water standing somwhere. The hot discs through cold water causes it to misallign.
    If you have had the rotors tooled, most probably, they need to be replaced with new OEM ones. I have never applied tool to rotors on any of my cars. That is a very bad and unnecessary practice. It does two things. (1) reduces the life of the rotor because by tooling the rotor, material is being removed thus it is being made thin. (2) When the rotor is put on the lath machine, the rotor has to be "zeroed". That has to be done using a dial gauge placed at the hub. Most of the lath machinist spin the rotor, touch the outer part of the rotor with the tool to scribe a line on it. Based on the line, they eyeball the rotor's trueness on the lath and proceed to remove material from one side of the rotor and do this action on the other side too. Now what has happened is that not only is the rotor out of true but its thickness is no longer uniform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    Is your car a Mehran? I read somewhere on Pakwheels that the quality of Mehran rotors is not good. They get warped easily. If you car is not a Mehran, did you fit OEM rotors or after market replacements? Both reasons for warped rotors is mentioned below. However in your case you fitted new ones so we can rule out due to being worn/thin leaving just quality issue.



    If you have had the rotors tooled, most probably, they need to be replaced with new OEM ones. I have never applied tool to rotors on any of my cars. That is a very bad and unnecessary practice. It does two things. (1) reduces the life of the rotor because by tooling the rotor, material is being removed thus it is being made thin. (2) When the rotor is put on the lath machine, the rotor has to be "zeroed". That has to be done using a dial gauge placed at the hub. Most of the lath machinist spin the rotor, touch the outer part of the rotor with the tool to scribe a line on it. Based on the line, they eyeball the rotor's trueness on the lath and proceed to remove material from one side of the rotor and do this action on the other side too. Now what has happened is that not only is the rotor out of true but its thickness is no longer uniform.
    It's a 2008 model honda civic. Rotors replaced were oem and now I recall the brake pads were not genuine. It was sunday and I had to leave for sindh and my car's front left side brake pads had developed some issue which required immediate replacement. Sadly honda 3s was closed that day and my mechanic couldn't source the oem brake pads and he had fitted some nissin brake pads costing around 4500rs. I think the culprit is the non oem brake pads. I never ever go to roadside mechanics for repairs but had no choice that day
    I guess rotors now need to replaced along with brake pads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk_KingpiN View Post
    It's a 2008 model honda civic. Rotors replaced were oem and now I recall the brake pads were not genuine. It was sunday and I had to leave for sindh and my car's front left side brake pads had developed some issue which required immediate replacement. Sadly honda 3s was closed that day and my mechanic couldn't source the oem brake pads and he had fitted some nissin brake pads costing around 4500rs. I think the culprit is the non oem brake pads. I never ever go to roadside mechanics for repairs but had no choice that day
    I guess rotors now need to replaced along with brake pads.

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using PW Forums mobile app
    If the road side mechanic did not tool the rotor, you might get away with by simply going back to the OEM pads (about 8,000??). Do the remedy in a two steps. (1) with the OEM pads drive car for a month to allow the new pads to really get a chance to bed in. maybe the vibration will go away. (2) If the vibration still persists then you have no option but to replace the rotors ($$$). While replacing the rotors you do not have to replace the pads again. The OEM pads will bed into the new rotors pretty quickly.

    On the other hand if the rotors were tooled, then they are pretty much history.

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    Well thnks for sharing this info with us. Can u plz explain this zeroing this again? I didnt actually understand the zeroing thing and wana knw abt it. Thanks



    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    If you have had the rotors tooled, most probably, they need to be replaced with new OEM ones. I have never applied tool to rotors on any of my cars. That is a very bad and unnecessary practice. It does two things. (1) reduces the life of the rotor because by tooling the rotor, material is being removed thus it is being made thin. (2) When the rotor is put on the lath machine, the rotor has to be "zeroed". That has to be done using a dial gauge placed at the hub. Most of the lath machinist spin the rotor, touch the outer part of the rotor with the tool to scribe a line on it. Based on the line, they eyeball the rotor's trueness on the lath and proceed to remove material from one side of the rotor and do this action on the other side too. Now what has happened is that not only is the rotor out of true but its thickness is no longer uniform.
    Speed Costs Money... How Fast Can U Afford To Drive...???

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    If the road side mechanic did not tool the rotor, you might get away with by simply going back to the OEM pads (about 8,000??). Do the remedy in a two steps. (1) with the OEM pads drive car for a month to allow the new pads to really get a chance to bed in. maybe the vibration will go away. (2) If the vibration still persists then you have no option but to replace the rotors ($$$). While replacing the rotors you do not have to replace the pads again. The OEM pads will bed into the new rotors pretty quickly.

    On the other hand if the rotors were tooled, then they are pretty much history.
    Alright sir I got it. I will replace brakes pads after eid and will see if vibration goes away or not. Otherwise I will replace the rotors as well as I can't live with this stupid steering vibration. Rotors were not tooled thankfully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk_KingpiN View Post
    Alright sir I got it. I will replace brakes pads after eid and will see if vibration goes away or not. Otherwise I will replace the rotors as well as I can't live with this stupid steering vibration. Rotors were not tooled thankfully.
    Please note that just in the same way as the vibration appeared after about a month of switching to non-OEM pads, it may take about the same time for the vibration to go away. This time period may be considered as a running in period of the pads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    Please note that just in the same way as the vibration appeared after about a month of switching to non-OEM pads, it may take about the same time for the vibration to go away. This time period may be considered as a running in period of the pads.
    Noted sir. I will surely keep this in mind. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaadMehboob View Post
    Well thnks for sharing this info with us. Can u plz explain this zeroing this again? I didnt actually understand the zeroing thing and wana knw abt it. Thanks
    It is a bit hard to explain in words how this process is done if you haven?t seen a lathe machinist work. Anyhow I'll try to explain.

    The Rotor is secured to the car at its hub. The hub is supported via the wheel bearing upon which it turns. The rotor, when it was manufactured at the factory was produced in (most probably) one shot on a CNC machine. The CNC machine has the advantage the multiple operations can be done WITHOUT REMOVING THE DISC FROM THE MACHINE. And because all the operations on the rotor were done without removing it from the machine, all dimensions and surfaces are correct with respect TO EACH OTHER. Also it has to be kept in mind that in order to ensure that two components (hub and rotor) sit against each other CONCENTRICALY usually a step or seat or collar or tapered seat screws are provided.

    With that back ground, we now come to the normal lathe machine which are used in the market to tool rotors. Lathe machines typically have a three jaw or four jaw chucks. Chuck is the part of a lathe machine that holds the rotor and spins it to allow tooling. If the chuck could hold the rotor in the EXACT same way in the EXACT same place as it was fitted to the car, there would be no need to zero the rotor. However, that is not the case, the rotor is held on the chuck most probably from it outer diameter. Since the rotor is held from a different place as compared to its fitting on the car, it's centre on the lath is not is not in the same place as compared to if it was on the hub, a process has to be done to MAKE the centre EXACTLY same as if it was fitted to the hub. This process is called "zeroing" or "centreing". While centering the rotor both axial and concentric "zeroing" has to be confirmed. There are a few methods to do this, (1) fabricate a fixture or jig specifically designed for the rotor that fits in the lathe chuck; this fixture once certerized in the chuck automatically holds the rotor concentrically. (2) Use specially designed tapered cones to hold the rotor during the tooling process. Taper cones also automatically hold the rotor concentrically. (3) Use a double dial method to certerize the rotor axially and concentrically. Of course let us not forget that there a lathes specifically designed for the singular purpose of tooling rotors. These machines have no other purpose what so ever. Such machines are not found easily in the workshops.

    With all these "not so easy" and correct methods of "zeroing" the local ustaads to a short method of spinning a rotor, touching the tool lightly to the rotor to scribe a line on it. Since the rotor is wobbling on the lath, some part is closer to the tool and some part is far. The ustaad keeps moving the rotor about in the chuck until he gets an even line on the rotor. The accuracy of this zeroing method is dependant on the skill of the ustaat. There are more chances of ruining the rotor that has been "zeroed" by this method for tooling than getting it right. Thus it is not advisable to tool rotors plus it is unnecessary to do this on every pad change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msabbasi View Post
    It is a bit hard to explain in words how this process is done if you haven?t seen a lathe machinist work. Anyhow I'll try to explain.

    The Rotor is secured to the car at its hub. The hub is supported via the wheel bearing upon which it turns. The rotor, when it was manufactured at the factory was produced in (most probably) one shot on a CNC machine. The CNC machine has the advantage the multiple operations can be done WITHOUT REMOVING THE DISC FROM THE MACHINE. And because all the operations on the rotor were done without removing it from the machine, all dimensions and surfaces are correct with respect TO EACH OTHER. Also it has to be kept in mind that in order to ensure that two components (hub and rotor) sit against each other CONCENTRICALY usually a step or seat or collar or tapered seat screws are provided.

    With that back ground, we now come to the normal lathe machine which are used in the market to tool rotors. Lathe machines typically have a three jaw or four jaw chucks. Chuck is the part of a lathe machine that holds the rotor and spins it to allow tooling. If the chuck could hold the rotor in the EXACT same way in the EXACT same place as it was fitted to the car, there would be no need to zero the rotor. However, that is not the case, the rotor is held on the chuck most probably from it outer diameter. Since the rotor is held from a different place as compared to its fitting on the car, it's centre on the lath is not is not in the same place as compared to if it was on the hub, a process has to be done to MAKE the centre EXACTLY same as if it was fitted to the hub. This process is called "zeroing" or "centreing". While centering the rotor both axial and concentric "zeroing" has to be confirmed. There are a few methods to do this, (1) fabricate a fixture or jig specifically designed for the rotor that fits in the lathe chuck; this fixture once certerized in the chuck automatically holds the rotor concentrically. (2) Use specially designed tapered cones to hold the rotor during the tooling process. Taper cones also automatically hold the rotor concentrically. (3) Use a double dial method to certerize the rotor axially and concentrically. Of course let us not forget that there a lathes specifically designed for the singular purpose of tooling rotors. These machines have no other purpose what so ever. Such machines are not found easily in the workshops.

    With all these "not so easy" and correct methods of "zeroing" the local ustaads to a short method of spinning a rotor, touching the tool lightly to the rotor to scribe a line on it. Since the rotor is wobbling on the lath, some part is closer to the tool and some part is far. The ustaad keeps moving the rotor about in the chuck until he gets an even line on the rotor. The accuracy of this zeroing method is dependant on the skill of the ustaat. There are more changes of ruining the rotor that has been "zeroed" by this method for tooling than getting it right. Thus it is not advisable to tool rotors plus it is unnecessary to do this on every pad change.

    Many a thousand rotors are damaged like that everyday in Pakistan. There were places in Karachi that actually had the brake disc tooling machines which had a selection of mounting hubs and would cut the rotor both sides at the same time. They did charge a pretty penny and hence most people gave them to ustaads that eyeballed it zero and cut away.

    When I lived in Pakistan I actually made a few sets of pads myself, they were deglazing pads - actually cut down some pads that were used in heavy lift machinery brakes. You could mount the pads and go drive the car very slowly and apply brakes (pretty useless for brakes) after return the brake discs would be deglazed, (about 2 kms on some deserted road)

    Install new pads with correct procedure, burnish them on the discs and complete the job. Pad burnishing is really important which most mechanics or users even forget to do and results in bad brakes.
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