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Thread: Civic 95 engine swap

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    Default Civic 95 engine swap

    Dear members.

    So I have a weak stock carby D15 installed in my car, and after the gasket is gone 2nd time, the mechanic has proposed that I change the engine. As for the mechanic, he is considered quite reliable in the market.

    Now since the engine needs to be changed, I am thinking to jump to D15b dual vtec. I talked to the mechanic's engine guy in shershah, and he says engine with wiring and ecu for 70k.

    Considering your experiences, please guide me if thats a worthy option, and/or give suitable suggestions. Will it increase the resale value of the car, or devalue it? From what I think, the value will be increased of the car, but to those who know the potential of the dual vtec (correct me if im wrong).

    The guy also gave below options.

    1. D15b non vtec for 55k
    2. some efi engine (probably d15b non vtec) which will be combined with current carburetor in some way (if I head him correctly). Dont exactly recall the price for this option.

    Looking forward for expected assistance. Also let me know if maintenance costs will increase with vtec.

    Regards.


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    @Maverickiz3d if the mechanic is honest then he is incompetent. Just because the engine is burning gaskets doesn't mean that engine should be replaced. What happens when the gasket fails... how does the over heat happen? Is there no water in the cooling system at that point? Does the car has tstat and auto switch installed?

    You must get the entire cooling system checked which can be done under pressure since the leaks don't show up in a switched off car. If the gasket fails during normal driving and there is no water left in the system then there are leaks. My leaks were not apparent. They were very small and in water bodies. I only got rid of the heating up issue after replacing almost all hoses and water bodies and getting the nozzles on the intake manifold replaced (some jugar done) and something the mechanics called titlee was also leaking and was replaced. The point is that tap water causes too much rust and mineral deposit. I can assure you that your temprature switch will have so much gunk/rust/mineral deposit pasted on it that you will be surprised and it won't be working properly so you see only 75% temp when the car is actually over heating.

    In rare cases the head also gets warped and in very very rare cases develops a hair line crack. If its warped than it will need facing and if it has a hair line crack then it will need replacing. But changing the whole engine sounds very fishy.
    @Xulfiqar is an expert and will guide you precisely

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickiz3d View Post

    Considering your experiences, please guide me if thats a worthy option, and/or give suitable suggestions. Will it increase the resale value of the car, or devalue it? From what I think, the value will be increased of the car, but to those who know the potential of the dual vtec (correct me if im wrong).

    .
    You have to make up your mind. You want resale or driving pleasure?

    If you want resale, sell the car after changing the head gasket.

    If you want pleasure, go for the swap head first be prepared for wiring issues as local electricians are wire cutter and insulation tape masters.


    Sent using Curiosity's onboard communications sytem.
    Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    @Maverickiz3d if the mechanic is honest then he is incompetent. Just because the engine is burning gaskets doesn't mean that engine should be replaced. What happens when the gasket fails... how does the over heat happen? Is there no water in the cooling system at that point? Does the car has tstat and auto switch installed?

    You must get the entire cooling system checked which can be done under pressure since the leaks don't show up in a switched off car. If the gasket fails during normal driving and there is no water left in the system then there are leaks. My leaks were not apparent. They were very small and in water bodies. I only got rid of the heating up issue after replacing almost all hoses and water bodies and getting the nozzles on the intake manifold replaced (some jugar done) and something the mechanics called titlee was also leaking and was replaced. The point is that tap water causes too much rust and mineral deposit. I can assure you that your temprature switch will have so much gunk/rust/mineral deposit pasted on it that you will be surprised and it won't be working properly so you see only 75% temp when the car is actually over heating.

    In rare cases the head also gets warped and in very very rare cases develops a hair line crack. If its warped than it will need facing and if it has a hair line crack then it will need replacing. But changing the whole engine sounds very fishy.
    @Xulfiqar is an expert and will guide you precisely
    I met up with the mechanic again this morning.

    The reason he is suggesting the engine change is because after overhauling, problems will occur again and again in near future, and it also depends on the block's condition. So he said the best option is changing engine compared to overhauling. Moreover, he hasnt suggested dual vtec, efi or anything. He simply suggested i get the same carb engine swapped (not used in Pakistan). Its actually me who is considering swapping to vtec.

    Right now i am still driving the car for short routes and the water is steaming out quickly. I have to refill water every 10-12km. After i switch off the car, then restart it, at times the car stutters, which is possibly because water is seeping into one of the pistons.....but then gets better after some slight revving.

    Yes, there was no water in the radiator at the time the car heated up (of course), but the issue is water disappearing very quickly even though there are no leaks (when the car is running).

    I will check for the temp switch for rust. The 75% i witnessed was when the car started stuttering initially after heating up, and it rose to 95% by the time i reached home. So i am convinced the temp needle is showing temps correctly.

    You say changing engine sounds fishy...but what benefit is it to the mechanic if he is suggesting not to overhaul but change the engine? If I change to the same engine, the costs involved for me are similar. If the engine is overhauled, i will of course have all components changed to new since the engine is being opened, and therefore costs are around Rs. 35k to 40k. Same costs will incur for engine change to same engine.


    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbial_Slang View Post
    You have to make up your mind. You want resale or driving pleasure?

    If you want resale, sell the car after changing the head gasket.

    If you want pleasure, go for the swap head first be prepared for wiring issues as local electricians are wire cutter and insulation tape masters.


    Sent using Curiosity's onboard communications sytem.
    I am not much concerned about resale right now since I want to keep the vehicle, and therefore the thought of dual vtec is being suggested by the devil in me. But the fact that switching from carb to efi is not just the engine change, but other stuff as well (increasing costs) are confusing me.

    The mechanic today talked to the engine guy himself for the prices, and got the same quotes the engine guy gave to me. The mechanic said he will be visiting "Laalo Khet" today for some parts, and will check the engine availability/prices there as well. Is there a market in Laalo khet as well?




    So what would be the best option if i am to keep the vehicle for 1-2 more years? overhauling, engine change to same carb engine, or change to efi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickiz3d View Post
    I met up with the mechanic again this morning.

    The reason he is suggesting the engine change is because after overhauling, problems will occur again and again in near future, and it also depends on the block's condition. So he said the best option is changing engine compared to overhauling. Moreover, he hasnt suggested dual vtec, efi or anything. He simply suggested i get the same carb engine swapped (not used in Pakistan). Its actually me who is considering swapping to vtec.

    Right now i am still driving the car for short routes and the water is steaming out quickly. I have to refill water every 10-12km. After i switch off the car, then restart it, at times the car stutters, which is possibly because water is seeping into one of the pistons.....but then gets better after some slight revving.

    Yes, there was no water in the radiator at the time the car heated up (of course), but the issue is water disappearing very quickly even though there are no leaks (when the car is running).

    I will check for the temp switch for rust. The 75% i witnessed was when the car started stuttering initially after heating up, and it rose to 95% by the time i reached home. So i am convinced the temp needle is showing temps correctly.

    You say changing engine sounds fishy...but what benefit is it to the mechanic if he is suggesting not to overhaul but change the engine? If I change to the same engine, the costs involved for me are similar. If the engine is overhauled, i will of course have all components changed to new since the engine is being opened, and therefore costs are around Rs. 35k to 40k. Same costs will incur for engine change to same engine.




    I am not much concerned about resale right now since I want to keep the vehicle, and therefore the thought of dual vtec is being suggested by the devil in me. But the fact that switching from carb to efi is not just the engine change, but other stuff as well (increasing costs) are confusing me.

    The mechanic today talked to the engine guy himself for the prices, and got the same quotes the engine guy gave to me. The mechanic said he will be visiting "Laalo Khet" today for some parts, and will check the engine availability/prices there as well. Is there a market in Laalo khet as well?




    So what would be the best option if i am to keep the vehicle for 1-2 more years? overhauling, engine change to same carb engine, or change to efi?
    From where u r getting all this done?? I mean which workshop or mechanic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hornblower View Post
    From where u r getting all this done?? I mean which workshop or mechanic?
    Umar Autos, Chota Gate, near Airport (main shahrae faisal).

    Most of the employees of PIA get work done from him, and so did my father (he was also in PIA).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickiz3d View Post
    Umar Autos, Chota Gate, near Airport (main shahrae faisal).

    Most of the employees of PIA get work done from him, and so did my father (he was also in PIA).
    Ok. Thnx

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    @Maverickiz3d How he can rule out engine needs over hauling ? Has he done compression testing? is the car reducing oil ? Why is he suggesting that engine needs over haul when the car is reducing water... engine over haul is needed when car is reducing oil or have other issues? I can only think of a leaky water system which is the culprit of reducing water. Why don't you get the cooling system checked thoroughly by a professional. as mentioned earlier, my car's cooling system leaks were fixed by taking the intake manifold off and repairing it as it was leaking water, replacing water pump, almost all water bodies and hoses and clamps and every thing was replaced and the leak was gone, my temp switch was replaced my auto switch has also lost its sensitivity as it was not turning the fan on at the right temperature. The gasket was replaced since it got blown as car ran without water and the heat guage never showed heating because the temp sensor switch had a lot of rust / mineral gunk deposit on it. The thing is if you are running cooling system on water these problems are bound to happen.

    I am just trying to save you from a rip off. The choice is yours. Once the engine is swapped and the same cooling system is used, it will again leak water and over heat and burn the gasket and you will be back to square one.

    I also read from some senior members at pak wheels that engine overheating is also caused by some thing wrong with the valves in the engine head. You may discuss all your symptoms with some senior members and get a better advice. There are countless examples of people being ripped off into engine over haul or engine swap when the fault was very minor and had nothing to do with the engine itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    @Maverickiz3d How he can rule out engine needs over hauling ? Has he done compression testing? is the car reducing oil ? Why is he suggesting that engine needs over haul when the car is reducing water... engine over haul is needed when car is reducing oil or have other issues? I can only think of a leaky water system which is the culprit of reducing water. Why don't you get the cooling system checked thoroughly by a professional. as mentioned earlier, my car's cooling system leaks were fixed by taking the intake manifold off and repairing it as it was leaking water, replacing water pump, almost all water bodies and hoses and clamps and every thing was replaced and the leak was gone, my temp switch was replaced my auto switch has also lost its sensitivity as it was not turning the fan on at the right temperature. The gasket was replaced since it got blown as car ran without water and the heat guage never showed heating because the temp sensor switch had a lot of rust / mineral gunk deposit on it. The thing is if you are running cooling system on water these problems are bound to happen.

    I am just trying to save you from a rip off. The choice is yours. Once the engine is swapped and the same cooling system is used, it will again leak water and over heat and burn the gasket and you will be back to square one.

    I also read from some senior members at pak wheels that engine overheating is also caused by some thing wrong with the valves in the engine head. You may discuss all your symptoms with some senior members and get a better advice. There are countless examples of people being ripped off into engine over haul or engine swap when the fault was very minor and had nothing to do with the engine itself.
    Not sure about that. No compression testing. Probably from experience? He says overhauling will bring back problems, or create new problems.

    Yes, I forgot to mention the engine is eating oil and giving whitish smoke on higher revs. The last time the gasket was changed (by the other mechanic), he suggested overhauling engine due to the oil/smoke issue. But then i needed the car for use and didnt want to get it overhauled which would mean not having the car for a week.

    As for the cooling system, even though i had the radiator serviced, I will consider putting in a new radiator. I have never had heating problems with this car, and I have been driving it for around 3-4 years now. The heating only occurred due to water shortage in radiator, or those old rubber hoses that completed their time.

    Yes water may not be the best option in radiators, but like I said I have never had heating problems. However, a time comes when something or the other develops a problem, which is a case in any car for any component.


    So I talked to the mechanic again, who checked for the engines at Lalo khet but didnt find the vtec ones there. He is saying he'll put in an efi engine, but change the manifold to run with the carburetor. Engine cost around 35k + labor/oil/etc.



    So now the question is, as per your professional knowledge and experiences, is it more suitable to get the engine overhauled or swap to a similar engine (considering costs are same for both options).

    The other option of vtec is a better option in the respect that performance/consumption will improve, which involves extra $$$ that I can go for, but I also want to be practical.

    Opinions and suggestions from all members are welcome.

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    Go for swap and yes vtec one. Honda engines are not overhauled well even by honda workshops. But be careful while buying a new engine. I would suggest to buy engine+ transmission+ cooling system as whole to avoid miscellaneous problems in future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hornblower View Post
    Go for swap and yes vtec one. Honda engines are not overhauled well even by honda workshops. But be careful while buying a new engine. I would suggest to buy engine+ transmission+ cooling system as whole to avoid miscellaneous problems in future.

    You say the Honda engines are not overhauled well even by Honda. What makes you say this? Because this is similar to what the mechanic is saying, but contrary to what some members are suggesting.

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    changing the radiator is not the ideal way to tackle the problem, you need to pressure test, I am sure there must be at least 35 punctures in the car since you are running on water since a long time.

    Regarding oil reduction, how much oil does it reduce in a 3000 kilometer run?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickiz3d View Post
    You say the Honda engines are not overhauled well even by Honda. What makes you say this? Because this is similar to what the mechanic is saying, but contrary to what some members are suggesting.
    Coz the mechanics working in honda are ordinary mechanics working on daily wages at least in khi this is the case , secondly if u get it done from any other workshop they will not be having proper tools and techniques, take the example of torque tightning of head bolts by our mechnics , they do it by force not as per oem specs.
    Remember opening an engine fully and assembling it again is not an easy job. The person doing this has to be hell professional so that he caters even the minutest details , and there is a myriad of small things to be taken care of.
    U must have heard the slang phrase " aida kera engine khol k baithya si "
    So i would suggest to buy a kabli engine vtec one and get it swapped if ur engine is doing problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    changing the radiator is not the ideal way to tackle the problem, you need to pressure test, I am sure there must be at least 35 punctures in the car since you are running on water since a long time.

    Regarding oil reduction, how much oil does it reduce in a 3000 kilometer run?
    changing the radiator is my task along with the engine change/overhaul, so that in future at least i am sure the radiator is sound.

    As for the reduction, cant be sure what to answer, but my guess would be that 30-40% remains after 3000km. Considered this on the basis of average 10km per run daily (yes, my work place is near so not much running, but i do go here and there twice a week so average turns out to be 10km per day).

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    Quote Originally Posted by hornblower View Post
    Coz the mechanics working in honda are ordinary mechanics working on daily wages at least in khi this is the case , secondly if u get it done from any other workshop they will not be having proper tools and techniques, take the example of torque tightning of head bolts by our mechnics , they do it by force not as per oem specs.
    Remember opening an engine fully and assembling it again is not an easy job. The person doing this has to be hell professional so that he caters even the minutest details , and there is a myriad of small things to be taken care of.
    U must have heard the slang phrase " aida kera engine khol k baithya si "
    So i would suggest to buy a kabli engine vtec one and get it swapped if ur engine is doing problems.

    Yes, you can say its more their intuition than expertise.

    So i have you as "pro swap". Lets see what others say.

    I have till Saturday to decide. On Monday I will be handing over the car.

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    Ok this means that the car is burning a considerable amount of oil. But you need to diagnose the problem properly to pin point the cause that weather its bad valve seals or bad rings? If I am not wrong I remember reading somewhere on forums that a burnt gasket also causes oil loss issues however this info may be wrong. How much overhaul is required? Would a head-over solve the problem? Weather a ring job will solve the problem or does the engine need a full overhaul? So you need to pinpoint the problem to avoid spending more than required.

    Also pressure testing the cooling system is a must else it will burn the overhauled or swapped engine again. Else you can change all hoses, metal pipes and water bodies and check if the water level is still going down. The leak could be in the intake manifold as well so its any body's guess until you pressure test it. Its very easy just see some videos and you can do it at home with a bicycle pump as well. Requires only as much as 10 to 20 psi (I don't remember the exact safe pressure so just google that) and an old radiator cap and a tire nozzle.

    Also I forgot once thing, have you tried changing the radiator cap? if its not making a good seal you will always keep loosing coolant/water quantity in radiator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickiz3d View Post
    changing the radiator is my task along with the engine change/overhaul, so that in future at least i am sure the radiator is sound.

    As for the reduction, cant be sure what to answer, but my guess would be that 30-40% remains after 3000km. Considered this on the basis of average 10km per run daily (yes, my work place is near so not much running, but i do go here and there twice a week so average turns out to be 10km per day).

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    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    Ok this means that the car is burning a considerable amount of oil. But you need to diagnose the problem properly to pin point the cause that weather its bad valve seals or bad rings? If I am not wrong I remember reading somewhere on forums that a burnt gasket also causes oil loss issues however this info may be wrong. How much overhaul is required? Would a head-over solve the problem? Weather a ring job will solve the problem or does the engine need a full overhaul? So you need to pinpoint the problem to avoid spending more than required.

    Also pressure testing the cooling system is a must else it will burn the overhauled or swapped engine again. Else you can change all hoses, metal pipes and water bodies and check if the water level is still going down. The leak could be in the intake manifold as well so its any body's guess until you pressure test it. Its very easy just see some videos and you can do it at home with a bicycle pump as well. Requires only as much as 10 to 20 psi (I don't remember the exact safe pressure so just google that) and an old radiator cap and a tire nozzle.

    Also I forgot once thing, have you tried changing the radiator cap? if its not making a good seal you will always keep loosing coolant/water quantity in radiator.
    Its certainly not the gasket thats burning the oil since it recently gave up, whereas the oil reduction has been there since many months.

    As for the radiator cap, it is old, and the mechanic tore off part of the rubber so that gas can leak out which is being created due to bad gasket.

    Well yes, if you put it like that, then the costs can certainly be reduced if only a few components are replaced. But people say, if the engine is being opened, dont compromise and change as much parts as you can so that it doesnt have to be opened again in near future.

    The last time the mechanic opened the head to change the gasket, he pointed out that there is play in the pistons, and suggested overhaul, but then i didnt have time otherwise I would have let him do the job.

    Now the issue is this current mechanic who is suggesting against overhaul since he believes these engines are not to be overhauled as problems are bound to occur again, and therefore considers swapping.


    If you guys are in my place, and can afford either the overhaul, similar swap, or vtec swap, what would you consider best (and practical for long run)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickiz3d View Post
    Its certainly not the gasket thats burning the oil since it recently gave up, whereas the oil reduction has been there since many months.

    As for the radiator cap, it is old, and the mechanic tore off part of the rubber so that gas can leak out which is being created due to bad gasket.

    Well yes, if you put it like that, then the costs can certainly be reduced if only a few components are replaced. But people say, if the engine is being opened, dont compromise and change as much parts as you can so that it doesnt have to be opened again in near future.

    The last time the mechanic opened the head to change the gasket, he pointed out that there is play in the pistons, and suggested overhaul, but then i didnt have time otherwise I would have let him do the job.

    Now the issue is this current mechanic who is suggesting against overhaul since he believes these engines are not to be overhauled as problems are bound to occur again, and therefore considers swapping.


    If you guys are in my place, and can afford either the overhaul, similar swap, or vtec swap, what would you consider best (and practical for long run)?
    Does your mechanic know that this engine has a pressurised cooling system and the cap is a "pressure regulating cap" - the numbers you see written on it are for a reason.

    the 0.9 you see is actually 0.9 bar of pressure, the big spring you see under it will pop at this pressure and allow water/coolant to be pushed to the expansion tank. The vacuum valve will allow it to be sucked back.

    Also meaning that at normal working - the rubber pipes will feel hard and full like a tyre.

    If your mechanic is not confident in his own skill of overhauling the engine then find another mechanic.

    Was the block corroded at the cylinders when the head was removed for gasket replacement?
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    Does your mechanic know that this engine has a pressurised cooling system and the cap is a "pressure regulating cap" - the numbers you see written on it are for a reason.

    the 0.9 you see is actually 0.9 bar of pressure, the big spring you see under it will pop at this pressure and allow water/coolant to be pushed to the expansion tank. The vacuum valve will allow it to be sucked back.

    Also meaning that at normal working - the rubber pipes will feel hard and full like a tyre.

    If your mechanic is not confident in his own skill of overhauling the engine then find another mechanic.

    Was the block corroded at the cylinders when the head was removed for gasket replacement?
    Ok now let me make something clear. After **** happened last week, I first took the car to the mechanic who changed the gasket last time. He inspected and quickly informed the gasket is gone again, and that he will now not work on the car unless I am having it overhauled. At that moment, he inspected the radiator cap and told me this is also finished, and then tore off part of the rubber so that the gas being created in the system leaks out and not stays trapped, which may result in something worse.

    Yes, the block was slightly corroded, but the mechanic said overhauling can be done on it.

    However, this time when he clearly said he will only overhaul the engine now (and because his overhauling costs are high), I considered going to the other mechanic who is quite old and has a reputation. I went to the other mechanic to find out about overhauling costs, but he says these Honda engines shouldnt be overhauled since problem may come back again, along with other new problems, and suggested swapping the engine as the best bet.

    Attached is picture from last gasket change.

    Civic 95 engine swap -1552420


    Full size: http://i.imgur.com/aBu3vAk.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickiz3d View Post
    Ok now let me make something clear. After **** happened last week, I first took the car to the mechanic who changed the gasket last time. He inspected and quickly informed the gasket is gone again, and that he will now not work on the car unless I am having it overhauled. At that moment, he inspected the radiator cap and told me this is also finished, and then tore off part of the rubber so that the gas being created in the system leaks out and not stays trapped, which may result in something worse.

    Yes, the block was slightly corroded, but the mechanic said overhauling can be done on it.

    However, this time when he clearly said he will only overhaul the engine now (and because his overhauling costs are high), I considered going to the other mechanic who is quite old and has a reputation. I went to the other mechanic to find out about overhauling costs, but he says these Honda engines shouldnt be overhauled since problem may come back again, along with other new problems, and suggested swapping the engine as the best bet.

    Attached is picture from last gasket change.

    Civic 95 engine swap -1552420

    Full size: http://i.imgur.com/aBu3vAk.jpg
    you mechanic is drug addicted the cylinder block clearing seems damaged and maybes due to being uneven it was leaking was destroying gasket again and again first he would have putted a thicker gasket than when he find out that even thicker gasket won't work he just advice you to change engine becoz this block is not repairable

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    Quote Originally Posted by saboor73 View Post
    you mechanic is drug addicted the cylinder block clearing seems damaged and maybes due to being uneven it was leaking was destroying gasket again and again first he would have putted a thicker gasket than when he find out that even thicker gasket won't work he just advice you to change engine becoz this block is not repairable
    my man...that garbage you see are the remains of the old gasket. I hope you are assuming that as the block itself

    Or, you can point out exactly what you mean damaged, and where.

    And, the mechanic who did the previous gasket job is saying to have the engine overhauled. Its the other (current) mechanic who is advising engine change, even though he has not seen the block.

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