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Thread: Toyot 2.0D Hot Starting Issue

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    Default Toyot 2.0D Hot Starting Issue

    Dear Pak wheel members,
    I have Toyota corolla 2.0D 1998 model (indus), in the morning when I turn the key to start after the heater time finishes the car starts like awesome but when the car is hot after running few miles and if I stop at any shop and start without waiting for heater time the car takes more crankings and then starts also cranking is not strong, battery is new and maintained,
    2nd thing if in hot condition I wait for heater timer to finish and wait more 2 seconds then car starts better. what is the problem and in which sequence I should check the things?

    Injectors had been replaced with genuine Denso injectors, pump was tested by a Diesel lab and they reported it is as good as new. The mileage on my car is about 200,000kms and offcourse there is blowby but there is not black/white or blue smoke and the car pick up is like I can easily catch many Xlis and Glis.

    Click here for SOLUTION



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    In a diesel u hv to wait for the engine pre-heater to do its job even if the engine is hot

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    a diesel engine will start without preglow when it is warm, however the preglow lamp will light up and go off in about 2 or 3 seconds, but the glow relay is still engaged for another 4 seconds.

    Your hot start issue can be related to a jammed cold start advance plunger, on a 2C its on the pump facing the radiator (it has 2 coolant lines going into it) it should extend as soon as the engine comes upto 60 degrees celcius (quarter gauge). Repair and free it up.

    Do post on which lab tested your pump and calibrated it - also post the injector break pressure and what nozzles did you use? Have you checked the valve clearances recently?

    and have you been washing a hot engine? - If yes your injection pump is already dead, when it runs the pump gets very very hot and has extremely fine clearances - when you quench it with cold water it warps and the next time the engine starts, all rotating parts with warped housings eat away metal and the pump loses its performance.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    a diesel engine will start without preglow when it is warm, however the preglow lamp will light up and go off in about 2 or 3 seconds, but the glow relay is still engaged for another 4 seconds.

    Your hot start issue can be related to a jammed cold start advance plunger, on a 2C its on the pump facing the radiator (it has 2 coolant lines going into it) it should extend as soon as the engine comes upto 60 degrees celcius (quarter gauge). Repair and free it up.

    Do post on which lab tested your pump and calibrated it - also post the injector break pressure and what nozzles did you use? Have you checked the valve clearances recently?

    and have you been washing a hot engine? - If yes your injection pump is already dead, when it runs the pump gets very very hot and has extremely fine clearances - when you quench it with cold water it warps and the next time the engine starts, all rotating parts with warped housings eat away metal and the pump loses its performance.
    Yes I remember I had a car engine wash twice but the engine was running about 30 minutes before I started washing, 2nd thing is that my brother drove it to Quetta to make its automatic windows power side mirrors as we could easily find stuff removed from japanese corollas of the same age so now car is nice but my expections are always high as i see the starting of Ford supper duty truck or Nissan civilian bus, these vehicles start in half crank hot or cold,but my 2.0D starts half self only in the morning but not when hot, please explain me what is function of that plunger and tell me if you have a workshop arround Lahore or refer me to some one who can really show me the difference in starting after his job completion. also why engine cranks slowly and hardly, does piston rings swell too much and is it normal,my brother say he observed 2011 model 2D starting same as our starts, I have done servicing of my Self starter motor and also relay and key switch was looked at.
    It is a 2nd hand car I do not know how it was behaved earlier. Diesel pump was also tested their in Quetta but I can not give the readings you are asking,but we remeber they maladjuted the pump pressure and later our car was stalling when we try to accelerator from 70km/hr in top gear but it was solved later by adjustments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by imran2d View Post
    Dear Pak wheel members,
    I have Toyota corolla 2.0D 1998 model (indus), in the morning when I turn the key to start after the heater time finishes the car starts like awesome but when the car is hot after running few miles and if I stop at any shop and start without waiting for heater time the car takes more crankings and then starts also cranking is not strong, battery is new and maintained,
    2nd thing if in hot condition I wait for heater timer to finish and wait more 2 seconds then car starts better. what is the problem and in which sequence I should check the things?

    Injectors had been replaced with genuine Denso injectors, pump was tested by a Diesel lab and they reported it is as good as new. The mileage on my car is about 200,000kms and offcourse there is blowby but there is not black/white or blue smoke and the car pick up is like I can easily catch many Xlis and Glis.

    Problem could be related to one of the fuel sensors or fuel pump itself. Get them checked, your issue will be resolved.

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    bro,check da tappit clearence @ engine compresion,,i thing tappit is tight and engine is week ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwa3001 View Post
    bro,check da tappit clearence @ engine compresion,,i thing tappit is tight and engine is week ??
    thanks I have noted down your advice but let me hear from Mr.Xulfiqar that who can check all these things in Lahore or if he himself can do this job I will consult him, engine is weak but not at that stage,no smoke good torque the max speed on meter is 200km/hr but I can achieve upto 145km/hr or 150km/hr as the engine is 12 years old.

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    the 2C diesel in NA form cannot get the corolla to 200 km/h. The gauge is there to cover most model ranges.

    anyway - the slow fighting to start engine is always a sign of a badly timed injection pump, if you have too much advance the engine will fight the starter action as the injection is happening too early - it will also be too diesely (rattling) when it does start. The plunger on the pump advances the camplate in the pump to start early delivery of fuel, it moves the timing about 10 degrees advanced and also raise the idle speed about 300 rpm, it should automatically release itself when the plunger lines get hot (its actually a thermostat) and the timing should come back to normal along with rpm settling to correct idle speed.

    by your posting it seems that your diesel lab did not do a good job at all, if they had a test bench AND KNEW WHAT TO SEE, they can actually see the start and cut of injection, delivery volume, action of the said plunger, measure internal pressure of the pump, leak down etc. The nozzles also play a very important role in timing the engine, if one nozzle has low break pressure compared to the rest - that certain cylinder will fire with advanced timing and vice versa if the pressure is too high.

    The correct procedure to adjust pump timing is to use a dial gauge on the pump when installing it to the engine and pulling the cold start advance to disengage - the aim is to lock the pump at 0.8mm stroke of the plunger when the engine is at dead zero TDC of cyl no1. You cannot achieve this with "andaaza" unless you actually are God.

    I cannot help you in Pakistan as I live in USA now, I had all tools to adjust such diesel engines in my shop in Pakistan but most (read 99%) of fresh ustaadified customers did not want to pay my required fee to adjust and calibrate their car's engines.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    the 2C diesel in NA form cannot get the corolla to 200 km/h. The gauge is there to cover most model ranges.

    anyway - the slow fighting to start engine is always a sign of a badly timed injection pump, if you have too much advance the engine will fight the starter action as the injection is happening too early - it will also be too diesely (rattling) when it does start. The plunger on the pump advances the camplate in the pump to start early delivery of fuel, it moves the timing about 10 degrees advanced and also raise the idle speed about 300 rpm, it should automatically release itself when the plunger lines get hot (its actually a thermostat) and the timing should come back to normal along with rpm settling to correct idle speed.

    by your posting it seems that your diesel lab did not do a good job at all, if they had a test bench AND KNEW WHAT TO SEE, they can actually see the start and cut of injection, delivery volume, action of the said plunger, measure internal pressure of the pump, leak down etc. The nozzles also play a very important role in timing the engine, if one nozzle has low break pressure compared to the rest - that certain cylinder will fire with advanced timing and vice versa if the pressure is too high.

    The correct procedure to adjust pump timing is to use a dial gauge on the pump when installing it to the engine and pulling the cold start advance to disengage - the aim is to lock the pump at 0.8mm stroke of the plunger when the engine is at dead zero TDC of cyl no1. You cannot achieve this with "andaaza" unless you actually are God.

    I cannot help you in Pakistan as I live in USA now, I had all tools to adjust such diesel engines in my shop in Pakistan but most (read 99%) of fresh ustaadified customers did not want to pay my required fee to adjust and calibrate their car's engines.
    Good Information!
    I see your location Huston, Your words tell that you are really doing a quality job there but in pakistan you could not have reward for it, my Car is running fine just I had a dream to see a quick starting as I am a big fan of diesel engine I have studied the history of MAN diesel where Mr.Rudolf Diesel invented this engine and he is called Wrold changer, that's why I love my 2C engine though I am in Qatar and my 2.0D is in pakistan,anyway when I shall go for engine overhaul I shall check all these things, or if I get money I will buy REXTON XDI 270 as that is variable geometery turbo charged engine I love it.

    I keep now in mind to check that plunger in diesel pump and to take care of proper engine and pump timing match.

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    why are you overhauling the engine when it does not have any mechanical problems that calls for overhaul.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    why are you overhauling the engine when it does not have any mechanical problems that calls for overhaul.
    Actually one mechanic told me that there is blow by as we pull one rubber tube connected to air intake that shows some smoke when the engine is hot but I will go for overhaul after one year or after 30,000 km more running as the reason in my mind is in pakistan people reverse the odometer for cheating and I bought the car when i did not know even the abc of diesel engine so i suspect as i know if well maintained the diesels can last longer even upto 400,000 kms without over haul.but anyway I shall find any good workshop in Lahore or in Karachi if they can rebuild the pump and adjust the timing as when people touch these things the car sounds like tractor and that i don't want, I like a smooth and quieter diesel.

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    if your engine is not timed correctly it will have blow, by your posts your engine is in need of some good sensible fix procedures, once your timing is correct including operation of the cold start advance system the blow will vanish.. - Blowby increases on bad timing because the compression rings do not get proper cylinder pressure behind them to seal to the cylinder.

    Repairing or overhauling wont fix it, Contact DPS in Lahore or Thal engineering, they are Denso authorised agents. For setting up the timing, you need to have the dial gauge and adapter - I dont know of any workshop in Pakistan that has it, hardcore diesel enthusiasts have made it themselves, Its not that hard to use though. You can buy it as a kit outside Pakistan - the adapter screws onto the pump, the pin inserted, the gauge installed, preloaded 2mm, dial faced to zero and engine rotated to TDC - you will see the plunger movement on the gauge.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    if your engine is not timed correctly it will have blow, by your posts your engine is in need of some good sensible fix procedures, once your timing is correct including operation of the cold start advance system the blow will vanish.. - Blowby increases on bad timing because the compression rings do not get proper cylinder pressure behind them to seal to the cylinder.

    Repairing or overhauling wont fix it, Contact DPS in Lahore or Thal engineering, they are Denso authorised agents. For setting up the timing, you need to have the dial gauge and adapter - I dont know of any workshop in Pakistan that has it, hardcore diesel enthusiasts have made it themselves, Its not that hard to use though. You can buy it as a kit outside Pakistan - the adapter screws onto the pump, the pin inserted, the gauge installed, preloaded 2mm, dial faced to zero and engine rotated to TDC - you will see the plunger movement on the gauge.
    I got your point but please explain me the function of "COLD START ADVANCE SYSTEM" as I feel very quick and nice starting when it is cold but a hard starting when engine is at its normal temperature.also as you described about that gauge and adaptor so I am sure no body owns it in any workshop, may be denso or toyota but if it is the the part of their timing adjustment procedure. anyway when I go for vacation I will locate DPS or Thai engineering and will show my car to them and will seek their estimate and job requirements,
    additionaly pls., explain me how cruise control works is there any control valve and a flowmeter installed in the fuel line?

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    cold start advance on the diesel pump rotates the cam plate to advanced position to enable easy and quick cold start - when the engine shuts down the governor goes to max fuel and with the cam plate advanced the pump injects a great amount of fuel to start the cold metal engine - when the engine is hot the compressed air in the cylinders will already be at high temperature and will ignite the fuel as soon as it is sprayed hence the pump needs to "retard" its timing - thats what the cold start advance does (it advances timing in default cold state and retards timing when hot), its automatic in your car and will be jammed with rust 99.999% of times in Pakistan - the only ones I found working were either on brand new cars or the ones I fixed.

    If you simply free that up you will see that your engine would be performing quite better and your fuel economy will also go up. I always recommend to document all work done to the injection system - e.g. you have to note down what were the injection pressures of the nozzles, what was the pump output?? were all fuelling ports delivering even quantity? - Once you have that noted and proceed to repair - you can get proper and exact help to where to find problems.

    If you rely on mechanic ustaad andaaza - you cannot get a good result as that andaaza can be off that day depending on how much ciggies, chai, panadol he had or if he came to work after quarelling with his wife..
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    cold start advance on the diesel pump rotates the cam plate to advanced position to enable easy and quick cold start - when the engine shuts down the governor goes to max fuel and with the cam plate advanced the pump injects a great amount of fuel to start the cold metal engine - when the engine is hot the compressed air in the cylinders will already be at high temperature and will ignite the fuel as soon as it is sprayed hence the pump needs to "retard" its timing - thats what the cold start advance does (it advances timing in default cold state and retards timing when hot), its automatic in your car and will be jammed with rust 99.999% of times in Pakistan - the only ones I found working were either on brand new cars or the ones I fixed.

    If you simply free that up you will see that your engine would be performing quite better and your fuel economy will also go up. I always recommend to document all work done to the injection system - e.g. you have to note down what were the injection pressures of the nozzles, what was the pump output?? were all fuelling ports delivering even quantity? - Once you have that noted and proceed to repair - you can get proper and exact help to where to find problems.

    If you rely on mechanic ustaad andaaza - you cannot get a good result as that andaaza can be off that day depending on how much ciggies, chai, panadol he had or if he came to work after quarelling with his wife..
    Now I understand the operation of cold start advance system, it is there to increase fuel injection when engine is cold and to return back when it is hot but now anyway I shall first find a nice polished and qualified person who knows all these things and then I will get all services.I hope I will get this done in this year. Hope that I will get my pump completely serviced as earlier I washed the hot engine and pump rotor might be worn out.Thanks a lot now I am confident to go in right direction.

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    if you want to wash your engine, do it in the morning - its better to work with brush and engine degreaser when cold than to cold quench a hot injection pump. Make sure your engine has its thermostat valve and correct mixture of coolant - diesel engines require coolant to prevent corrossion as the shockwave of each power stroke creates bubbles in the coolant near the headgasket.
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    I will do the same, I never run with simple water but I have to find a coolant of Caltex which comes as 50:50 mixture of coolant and demin water, I will soon replace the coolant with it.
    just last one observation related to hard start issue is as I investigated myself I checked that if there is any air penetrating into fuel line or filter so that air gap does not allow diesel to reach pump suction and it takes few cranks, but everything was found fine except that I have a strong vacuum in the fuel tank if I remove the fuel cap, is it normal or is there any breather got faluty or choked, do i need to replace fuel cap?

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    you should not have any vacuum in the fuel tank, if you are seeing vacuum its a highly dangerous situation of the tank collapsing under vacuum from the injection pumps vane pump inside. I have seen a collapsed tank here in the US, it was a mercedes W123, 240D and the tank was literally smashed, only due to a blocked vent.

    and you buy the caltex coolant as concentrate and distilled water separately, mix and use.
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    ^^ remove the smiley - your issues will solve themselves.
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    Very Informative!!
    I am also a big fan of Diesel Engines... had 3C-turbo in my car, loved it...
    I have also faced this hot start problem, but unfortunately no "ustaad" figured out what it is... all recommended to overhaul the engine..
    '73 Corona MarkII...

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