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Thread: Engine Replacment Toyota SE Saloon 2003(1598 CC)

  1. #1
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    Question Engine Replacment Toyota SE Saloon 2003(1598 CC)

    Dear All,

    My car(Toyota SE Saloon 2003(,Petrol+CNG,1598 CC) was overheated thats why gasket has been burnt.Cylinder of lower assembly turns into black/burnt.Now situation is this mechanic is saying we have to change engine with a "kabli" (half assembly)engine.What you can suggest.Also plz give me the place from where i can buy half assembly also give me the rough price of that.
    Kindly see the pics.
    Thanks.
    Regards,
    Asif
    Attached Images Attached Images     

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    Bro, what you did then? You went for swap or overhaul? Kindly share your experience.

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    Went through the same anguish, Finally replaced the engine with kabli 3zz engine. The kabli engine costed 53000 whereas the took the old one for 10000. I hope the adventure pays off.

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    Hope it pays off. Good luck!

    Sent using Curiosity's onboard communications sytem.
    Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atif13 View Post
    Went through the same anguish, Finally replaced the engine with kabli 3zz engine. The kabli engine costed 53000 whereas the took the old one for 10000. I hope the adventure pays off.
    how is it going mate? What are the results of the assembly replacement? How did you make sure you got your hands on a nice and clean assembly ? Mind sharing your experience ?
    Mera dil hay car ka sheehsa
    too hay zalim "gullu butt"

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    ^^ i will probably be going through the same process soon.
    Mera dil hay car ka sheehsa
    too hay zalim "gullu butt"

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    With grace of ALLAH, the engine is running great. After some botheration I finally got a clean piece with no back comparison and loads of power.
    At 1st I went for straight swap with 3ZZ. I got the engine for 43,000 in exchange of my old engine. That kabli engine after installation produce a sound from crank shaft and started to rattle. I went for replacement under warranty and took another 3ZZ engine. During cleaning of chamber the mechanic found the lower piece of big end bearing a bit loose so we returned that engine also under warranty.
    Meanwhile, the kabri offered me 1ZZ instead of 3ZZ with additional cost of 10,000. After discussion with experts and my mechanic it revealed that the 1ZZ could be installed easily on my car without changing wiring, gear and ECU. I availed the kabri offer and negotiated for 1ZZ. I paid him 7,000 extra for 1ZZ. We brought the engine to garage, cleaned it, changed its intake camshaft (because my car is non-vvti and the kabli engine was vvti), poured some petrol and W.D-40 in all the cylinders. Including all these activities with 5 hours the engine was under the hood. We started the with Local engine oil (just to flush) it. The engine started greatly but after 3 minutes of running the oil indication light started to appear with tick-tick sound. The engine was shut down and its oil chamber was opened. Oil pump strainer was found chocked, it was cleaned and the engine was also filter through cloth.
    The engine chamber was re-fitted and the same oil was poured in. The engine was started and now it sounded great but the smoke in the exhaust was huge. After 30 minutes of idling the engine oil and filter was changed and now we poured ZIC Hiflow. The engine was started again and this the smoke also went away.
    I have been using my vehicle since a week now and its drive is like it was never before. By the Grace of Allah Almighty the adventure has paid off.
    The Expense list is as under;
    Engine (1ZZ) in exchange: 50,000
    New radiator: 4,000
    Engine Oil and Filter : 5,000
    Labour : 7000
    Silicon, Petrol W.D 40 : 1000
    Engine Mounting (It was found broken) : 1000
    Cam shaft adjustment for non Vvti : 1000
    The package price is just above 70,000
    I Hope my experience sharing help the PW member.

    In case you people want further information or want to test drive my car, I am available all the time
    My contact number is 03212059427 and my location is shadman lahore

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atif13 View Post
    With grace of ALLAH, the engine is running great. After some botheration I finally got a clean piece with no back comparison and loads of power.
    At 1st I went for straight swap with 3ZZ. I got the engine for 43,000 in exchange of my old engine. That kabli engine after installation produce a sound from crank shaft and started to rattle. I went for replacement under warranty and took another 3ZZ engine. During cleaning of chamber the mechanic found the lower piece of big end bearing a bit loose so we returned that engine also under warranty.
    Meanwhile, the kabri offered me 1ZZ instead of 3ZZ with additional cost of 10,000. After discussion with experts and my mechanic it revealed that the 1ZZ could be installed easily on my car without changing wiring, gear and ECU. I availed the kabri offer and negotiated for 1ZZ. I paid him 7,000 extra for 1ZZ. We brought the engine to garage, cleaned it, changed its intake camshaft (because my car is non-vvti and the kabli engine was vvti), poured some petrol and W.D-40 in all the cylinders. Including all these activities with 5 hours the engine was under the hood. We started the with Local engine oil (just to flush) it. The engine started greatly but after 3 minutes of running the oil indication light started to appear with tick-tick sound. The engine was shut down and its oil chamber was opened. Oil pump strainer was found chocked, it was cleaned and the engine was also filter through cloth.
    The engine chamber was re-fitted and the same oil was poured in. The engine was started and now it sounded great but the smoke in the exhaust was huge. After 30 minutes of idling the engine oil and filter was changed and now we poured ZIC Hiflow. The engine was started again and this the smoke also went away.
    I have been using my vehicle since a week now and its drive is like it was never before. By the Grace of Allah Almighty the adventure has paid off.
    The Expense list is as under;
    Engine (1ZZ) in exchange: 50,000
    New radiator: 4,000
    Engine Oil and Filter : 5,000
    Labour : 7000
    Silicon, Petrol W.D 40 : 1000
    Engine Mounting (It was found broken) : 1000
    Cam shaft adjustment for non Vvti : 1000
    The package price is just above 70,000
    I Hope my experience sharing help the PW member.

    In case you people want further information or want to test drive my car, I am available all the time
    My contact number is 03212059427 and my location is shadman lahore
    Wow very useful information. Thanks mate.

    Refreshing to see that there are people willing to help others with all sincerity.

    So the warranty system for the engines does work. I was under the impression that the kabaria would not honor the warranty if they were told that there was something wrong with the engine. How long was the warranty period? 1 Day ?

    Did you replace the head and assembly only or the whole engine. Would the expense been less if you just replaced the head and the assembly?

    Did you take your mechanic with you when you went to buy the engine?

    Did you manage to check whether the engine was imported from abroad or of a local origin?

    Lastly, thanks for mentioning your phone number as well. I am sure it will help many others like me who are thinking about an engine replacement.

    Best wishes for the health of your engine and car.
    Mera dil hay car ka sheehsa
    too hay zalim "gullu butt"

  9. 21-11-2015, 02:11 PM

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  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atif13 View Post
    With grace of ALLAH, the engine is running great. After some botheration I finally got a clean piece with no back comparison and loads of power.
    At 1st I went for straight swap with 3ZZ. I got the engine for 43,000 in exchange of my old engine. That kabli engine after installation produce a sound from crank shaft and started to rattle. I went for replacement under warranty and took another 3ZZ engine. During cleaning of chamber the mechanic found the lower piece of big end bearing a bit loose so we returned that engine also under warranty.
    Meanwhile, the kabri offered me 1ZZ instead of 3ZZ with additional cost of 10,000. After discussion with experts and my mechanic it revealed that the 1ZZ could be installed easily on my car without changing wiring, gear and ECU. I availed the kabri offer and negotiated for 1ZZ. I paid him 7,000 extra for 1ZZ. We brought the engine to garage, cleaned it, changed its intake camshaft (because my car is non-vvti and the kabli engine was vvti), poured some petrol and W.D-40 in all the cylinders. Including all these activities with 5 hours the engine was under the hood. We started the with Local engine oil (just to flush) it. The engine started greatly but after 3 minutes of running the oil indication light started to appear with tick-tick sound. The engine was shut down and its oil chamber was opened. Oil pump strainer was found chocked, it was cleaned and the engine was also filter through cloth.
    The engine chamber was re-fitted and the same oil was poured in. The engine was started and now it sounded great but the smoke in the exhaust was huge. After 30 minutes of idling the engine oil and filter was changed and now we poured ZIC Hiflow. The engine was started again and this the smoke also went away.
    I have been using my vehicle since a week now and its drive is like it was never before. By the Grace of Allah Almighty the adventure has paid off.
    The Expense list is as under;
    Engine (1ZZ) in exchange: 50,000
    New radiator: 4,000
    Engine Oil and Filter : 5,000
    Labour : 7000
    Silicon, Petrol W.D 40 : 1000
    Engine Mounting (It was found broken) : 1000
    Cam shaft adjustment for non Vvti : 1000
    The package price is just above 70,000
    I Hope my experience sharing help the PW member.

    In case you people want further information or want to test drive my car, I am available all the time
    My contact number is 03212059427 and my location is shadman lahore
    Why would you mess with the camshaft to get rid of the OCV? :s All that was required were two wires for the OCV, 4 wires for the O2 and the ecu was to be replaced. That is all that was required to run vvti. Instead, you somehow disabled the vvti...

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    Yes dear he honored his word though he had to perused verbally. The warranty was for 7 days.

    I replaced the engine and head block (called as Chara engine in kabari terminology). whole engine (including generator, compressor, water body, intake manifold, throttle body) would have costed at-least 10 to 15 thousand more therefore i bought Chara engine only (Head & cylinder block assembly).

    yes i took my mechanic with myself. The engine i got seemed of Japanese origin as it was a VVTI variant of 3zz which was not produced in pakistani models.

    Yes i disabled the VVTI because my ECU is not designed to run VVTI so the cam shaft had to be adjusted (the adjustment was nothing but the removing of 2 extra teeth at the end of cam shaft for magnetic pick up). This has made a clean swap with no jugari work or alteration in the wiring of the car.

    The car is giving an average of approximately in 10 Km/L in city.

    I will have the engine oil replaced on 500 km. Will add coolant in radiator as i have verified that engine is not losing water and will also replace the gear oil.

    Somehow all these mechanical works have messed up the bottom plastic shield covers which had to be replaced with new one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atif13 View Post
    With grace of ALLAH, the engine is running great. After some botheration I finally got a clean piece with no back comparison and loads of power.
    At 1st I went for straight swap with 3ZZ. I got the engine for 43,000 in exchange of my old engine. That kabli engine after installation produce a sound from crank shaft and started to rattle. I went for replacement under warranty and took another 3ZZ engine. During cleaning of chamber the mechanic found the lower piece of big end bearing a bit loose so we returned that engine also under warranty.
    Meanwhile, the kabri offered me 1ZZ instead of 3ZZ with additional cost of 10,000. After discussion with experts and my mechanic it revealed that the 1ZZ could be installed easily on my car without changing wiring, gear and ECU. I availed the kabri offer and negotiated for 1ZZ. I paid him 7,000 extra for 1ZZ. We brought the engine to garage, cleaned it, changed its intake camshaft (because my car is non-vvti and the kabli engine was vvti), poured some petrol and W.D-40 in all the cylinders. Including all these activities with 5 hours the engine was under the hood. We started the with Local engine oil (just to flush) it. The engine started greatly but after 3 minutes of running the oil indication light started to appear with tick-tick sound. The engine was shut down and its oil chamber was opened. Oil pump strainer was found chocked, it was cleaned and the engine was also filter through cloth.
    The engine chamber was re-fitted and the same oil was poured in. The engine was started and now it sounded great but the smoke in the exhaust was huge. After 30 minutes of idling the engine oil and filter was changed and now we poured ZIC Hiflow. The engine was started again and this the smoke also went away.
    I have been using my vehicle since a week now and its drive is like it was never before. By the Grace of Allah Almighty the adventure has paid off.
    The Expense list is as under;
    Engine (1ZZ) in exchange: 50,000
    New radiator: 4,000
    Engine Oil and Filter : 5,000
    Labour : 7000
    Silicon, Petrol W.D 40 : 1000
    Engine Mounting (It was found broken) : 1000
    Cam shaft adjustment for non Vvti : 1000
    The package price is just above 70,000
    I Hope my experience sharing help the PW member.

    In case you people want further information or want to test drive my car, I am available all the time
    My contact number is 03212059427 and my location is shadman lahore
    I Don't Get Logic Of Pouring Petrol AND WD-40 And Oil At Same Time.....!

    That SMoke Is Due To Oil Burning.....WD-40 Is Used To Lubricate Cylinder...So As OIL.....And Petrol On That Makes Quiet A Mess....!

    Anyways Good Luck With Engine....VVT-i 1ZZ Would Have Been Much Better But Again....They Won't Be Able To Pull The VVT-i Things Because Its Beyond Their Level ....!
    TOYOTA Sprinter 86- AE80 DOHC 20v'D TOYOTA Corolla 98- AE101 4AFE 16v

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atif13 View Post
    Yes dear he honored his word though he had to perused verbally. The warranty was for 7 days.

    I replaced the engine and head block (called as Chara engine in kabari terminology). whole engine (including generator, compressor, water body, intake manifold, throttle body) would have costed at-least 10 to 15 thousand more therefore i bought Chara engine only (Head & cylinder block assembly).

    yes i took my mechanic with myself. The engine i got seemed of Japanese origin as it was a VVTI variant of 3zz which was not produced in pakistani models.

    Yes i disabled the VVTI because my ECU is not designed to run VVTI so the cam shaft had to be adjusted (the adjustment was nothing but the removing of 2 extra teeth at the end of cam shaft for magnetic pick up). This has made a clean swap with no jugari work or alteration in the wiring of the car.

    The car is giving an average of approximately in 10 Km/L in city.

    I will have the engine oil replaced on 500 km. Will add coolant in radiator as i have verified that engine is not losing water and will also replace the gear oil.

    Somehow all these mechanical works have messed up the bottom plastic shield covers which had to be replaced with new one.
    So basically, you're using the 3zz ecu with a 1zz? That is not right as well. You would be running the engine at a 'lean' a/f condition as the 3zz ecu would be designed to fuel an engine of 1.6l displacement whereas, you're running one of 1.8l displacement. By disabling the vvti, you've compromised on the fuel efficiency advantage that the vvti provides. There were no 'jugaars' required to make the vvti run, only the replacement of the ecu and addition of two wires for the ocv were required. What the mechanics did with it currently is basically 'jugaar'. In your previous post, you mentioned that the cam shaft was also changed. I'm guessing you're running one off of a 3zz? I would recommend that you switch back the original camshaft, the ocv and replace the ecu and connect the ocv.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Owais_Yunus View Post
    So basically, you're using the 3zz ecu with a 1zz? That is not right as well. You would be running the engine at a 'lean' a/f condition as the 3zz ecu would be designed to fuel an engine of 1.6l displacement whereas, you're running one of 1.8l displacement. By disabling the vvti, you've compromised on the fuel efficiency advantage that the vvti provides. There were no 'jugaars' required to make the vvti run, only the replacement of the ecu and addition of two wires for the ocv were required. What the mechanics did with it currently is basically 'jugaar'. In your previous post, you mentioned that the cam shaft was also changed. I'm guessing you're running one off of a 3zz? I would recommend that you switch back the original camshaft, the ocv and replace the ecu and connect the ocv.
    Guess What That Mechanic Is Running From.....A Diff In 3ZZ/1ZZ Pin-out ECU....! They Don't Know If Its Same Or Diff

    You Think That Mechanic Cared Abt Fuel Mileage Mixtures Leaning Rich A/F When He Disabled VVT-i...As I Said Its Beyond Their Level...All They See Is Car Is Started Running And Everything Is Fine.. A Common Typical Mechanic Mindset Can Be Seen...Nothing Wrong With Him...Its How Swaps Are Done Here When You Don't Involve Yourself Or DIY It
    TOYOTA Sprinter 86- AE80 DOHC 20v'D TOYOTA Corolla 98- AE101 4AFE 16v

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    As far my research on the net, i have learnt the ECU of 3ZZ are self learning the A/F ratio is dependent upon the amount of air flow detected from Air Flow sensor, irrespective of the what is the engine displacement. And far as the cam is concerned there is no rocket science behind it, just the magnetic pick up sensor teeth was reduced from 3 to 1 to enable the car the run on the same ECU. Secondly, for running this engine on vvti i would required to change ECU to provide wiring for solenoid clutch of VVTI.
    I have given a run to the car within city and its giving me a mileage of 10 km/l whereas the old engine used to give me around 8~9 km/l.
    At once the car gave huge smoke when we started it because of W.D 40 & Petrol but very soon the smoke disappeared altogether.
    For the correction of record, i am using cam shaft of 1ZZ engine with modification of removed teeth.
    People who are doubtful about this swap are more than welcomed to drive the car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SER_GTR View Post
    Guess What That Mechanic Is Running From.....A Diff In 3ZZ/1ZZ Pin-out ECU....! They Don't Know If Its Same Or Diff

    You Think That Mechanic Cared Abt Fuel Mileage Mixtures Leaning Rich A/F When He Disabled VVT-i...As I Said Its Beyond Their Level...All They See Is Car Is Started Running And Everything Is Fine.. A Common Typical Mechanic Mindset Can Be Seen...Nothing Wrong With Him...Its How Swaps Are Done Here When You Don't Involve Yourself Or DIY It
    Salaam hai mechanics ko. Its also possible that the Kabariya did not have the 2 row 1zz-fe ecu which would've been bolt on with the 3zz's wiring so he convinced the OP to get rid of the ocv.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atif13 View Post
    As far my research on the net, i have learnt the ECU of 3ZZ are self learning the A/F ratio is dependent upon the amount of air flow detected from Air Flow sensor, irrespective of the what is the engine displacement. And far as the cam is concerned there is no rocket science behind it, just the magnetic pick up sensor teeth was reduced from 3 to 1 to enable the car the run on the same ECU. Secondly, for running this engine on vvti i would required to change ECU to provide wiring for solenoid clutch of VVTI.
    I have given a run to the car within city and it giving me a mileage of 10 km/l whereas the old engine used to give me around 8~9 km/l.
    At once the car gave huge smoke when we started it because of W.D 40 & Petrol but very soon the smoke disappeared altogether.
    For the correction of record, i am using cam shaft of 1ZZ engine with modification of removed teeth.
    People who are doubtful about this swap are more than welcomed to drive the car.
    The pointing out of the issues is not being done here to pick on someone or to be a smarta**. The reason that I'm pointing it out is that it is fairly a recent swap and would be easier to negotiate with the Kabariyas at this point in time. What I'm trying to explain here is that replacing the ecu isnt any rocket science and is a much more straight forward job than the mechanical changes that were made. It wouldnt have required any changes in the current wiring. It wouldve only required an addition of about 4-5 wires in the current wiring and removal of the A/F pot, to be replaced by an O2 sensor. The A/F ratio is adjusted through values from the MAF sensor and the O2 sensor as well. Still, there are thresholds that are programmed into the ecu which cannot be exceeded no matter what signals you get from the sensors. Those thresholds would be different in both the ecus due to the volume of cylinders of both the engines. Had it been true that the displacement doesnt matter, Toyota wouldnt have made separate ecus for each of their engines and would've gone for the same ecu in each car. VVTi alters the valve timing to improve fuel efficiency when you're cruising at lower rpms, which would improve the mileage further.

    Anyways, if you believe that the swap is serving you like its meant to, I wouldnt comment further on it and would hope that it keeps serving you in the same manner in the future as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atif13 View Post
    As far my research on the net, i have learnt the ECU of 3ZZ are self learning the A/F ratio is dependent upon the amount of air flow detected from Air Flow sensor, irrespective of the what is the engine displacement. And far as the cam is concerned there is no rocket science behind it, just the magnetic pick up sensor teeth was reduced from 3 to 1 to enable the car the run on the same ECU. Secondly, for running this engine on vvti i would required to change ECU to provide wiring for solenoid clutch of VVTI.
    I have given a run to the car within city and its giving me a mileage of 10 km/l whereas the old engine used to give me around 8~9 km/l.
    At once the car gave huge smoke when we started it because of W.D 40 & Petrol but very soon the smoke disappeared altogether.
    For the correction of record, i am using cam shaft of 1ZZ engine with modification of removed teeth.
    People who are doubtful about this swap are more than welcomed to drive the car.
    There Are so Much Details To Go From LTFT STFT To Check Along With Injectors CC Differences ..The Diff Of VVT And Non VVT Engine / ECU But We Can COnclude It Down To If They Are Self Learning Universal ECU's Why Toyota Have Diff Variant For Each Models...

    To Cut It Short....You Can Get your Car OBD Checked For Live Readings to Check If It Ain't Running Any LEAN....There's A Specific Limit To Which It Can Adjust But Def Toyota Didn't Design ECU To Know That Some Mechanic One Day Will Use This ECU On 1.8L Displacement Block So Make It Switch MAPs From 1.6L To 1.8L And Increase Injector Pulse To Cover Diff Of 0.2L Displacement...Nop It Wont Work Like That....It Will Either Run LEAN Or Will RUn RICH Depending On Sensor Input....! Check LTFT STFT And Live Sensor Feed And You Will Know The Real Story..

    Running Car Can't Prove ANything That its 100% Running As It Should...And Def You Dont Need It To Run LEAN After All These Efforts Of Going Through Changing Engines...
    TOYOTA Sprinter 86- AE80 DOHC 20v'D TOYOTA Corolla 98- AE101 4AFE 16v

  19. #37
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    I Forget That Since Its IMC's SE-Saloon...It Have No O2 Sensor Means ECU Is BLIND To See Any Changes Running LEAN/RICH On 1st Place....!

    Its Just Fixed To One Specific Reading For 3zz...ECU Adjust Fueling In Relate To Main Sensors Like MAF/MAP/O2/TPS...

    In This Case Since There's No O2....Your ECU Can't See Anything But Same Readings From POT.....I Would Suggest To Get It Adjusted

    Looking At AF Ratios Now On 1ZZ...It Will Be Running Lean
    TOYOTA Sprinter 86- AE80 DOHC 20v'D TOYOTA Corolla 98- AE101 4AFE 16v

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    Good to see the discussion getting technical and you people getting involved it. PW's knowledge is appreciable.

    If it would had ran leaned then CEL would have appeared along with low mileage and poor acceleration. Moreover, to my knowledge the VVTI comes into play at higher rpm to provide a bit more time to inlet valve to remain open, this is meant for better air flow. At normal rpm vvti and non vvti had same valve timings neck to neck.
    Now, again i will agree with your point to the some extent that amount of fuel injection is decided by signal from MAF and O2 sensor through a pre-programed algorithm. In my case o2 sensor does not exist, so the only input will be MAF sensor. The larger displacement engine will cause more suction and air to flow through the engine which will be detected by MAF and accordingly fuel will be injected, as long as the values within threshold. Otherwise the engine would throw CEL.
    The mileage of the engine is final factor to tell that how engine is performing. In present case it had increased.
    Certainly each engine has its specific ECU to provide perfect results and cover latest upgraded features like VVTI and O2 sensor. But the principle of perfect burning will remains the same that is dependent upon the amount of Air detected by MAF and adjustment made by O2.
    I will update you people once i get it scanned through OBD and exhaust monitoring equipment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atif13 View Post
    Yes dear he honored his word though he had to perused verbally. The warranty was for 7 days.

    I replaced the engine and head block (called as Chara engine in kabari terminology). whole engine (including generator, compressor, water body, intake manifold, throttle body) would have costed at-least 10 to 15 thousand more therefore i bought Chara engine only (Head & cylinder block assembly).

    yes i took my mechanic with myself. The engine i got seemed of Japanese origin as it was a VVTI variant of 3zz which was not produced in pakistani models.

    Yes i disabled the VVTI because my ECU is not designed to run VVTI so the cam shaft had to be adjusted (the adjustment was nothing but the removing of 2 extra teeth at the end of cam shaft for magnetic pick up). This has made a clean swap with no jugari work or alteration in the wiring of the car.

    The car is giving an average of approximately in 10 Km/L in city.

    I will have the engine oil replaced on 500 km. Will add coolant in radiator as i have verified that engine is not losing water and will also replace the gear oil.

    Somehow all these mechanical works have messed up the bottom plastic shield covers which had to be replaced with new one.
    OK thanks and best of luck for the smooth running of the car in the future. The discussion going on at present is way above the level of my understanding but i am enjoying the technical points and as you said the knowledge of the PWs. Will stay tuned here for sure for the updates.
    Mera dil hay car ka sheehsa
    too hay zalim "gullu butt"

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    Today I got my car scanned and verified that No-Code are appearing. Moreover, performed exhaust emission test and that was also satisfactory. Just noticed that engine is throwing water-droplet in exhaust (a sign of perfect combustion).

    I will have engine oil, gear oil and coolant change this weekend.

    So far the car is ruining great, it is turning to be muscle car now.

    I hope this answer all the observation of PW member made

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