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Thread: Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2

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    Default Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2

    Hello fellows.
    I am back with my slightly problematic cultus to seek advice from fellow members/experts,

    I am going to put the car credentials before posting the problem (As per capsat's guidelines in another thread)

    Car: Cultus 06 Carby
    Odo : 67K
    Owner Since: Day 1

    Maintenance Schedule :
    -Oil change at 4K (Shell Helix)
    -Air filter Change (4K)
    -Spark Plug change (5-6K)

    Problem 1:

    As some of you may know, earlier i faced an ignition related problem that caused missing at 2.7K rpm. But with proper spark plug gap adjustment (0.8mm) and timing advance, the problem was resolved.

    This time I had the chance to take it on a long route after quite some time. The car was tuned fine a day ago (carburator cleanup with petrol spray, idle rpm and CNG adjustments etc). The problem I faced was having difficulty taking the car above 100kmph. Even in 4th gear, the car had difficulty going from 80 to 100. I tried increasing the gas a bit and that helped a bit but i knew any further increase would render jerks under load. So now that I am sure that CNG adjustment is fine. (It gave 200KM on a full cylinder that day)

    Turned it to petrol. Turns out that its behaving same (ditto) as it was doing before. Though great pick-up from 0-80, but once in 4th gear, it was like 80-100 in 45 secs. And as soon as I would engage the 5th, it would start coming down to 90 again.

    Problem 2:
    The car consumes petrol in an insane way. It only did 34 KMs in 5.6L . Thats like 6.4Km/L and thats sad. Tried getting it adjusted many times but of no use. Its either too much consumption or a jerky ride.

    For reference, the compression test results (done today) are as follows. These are purely for a cold engine.

    Cylinder 1 : Dry-178 psi , Wet - 205 psi
    Cylinder 2 : Dry-178 psi , Wet - 198 psi
    Cylinder 3 : Dry-180 psi , Wet - 204 psi.

    The last time i did it on a hot engine, the readings were

    Cylinder 1 : Dry-171 psi , Wet - 200 psi
    Cylinder 2 : Dry-179 psi , Wet - 205 psi
    Cylinder 3 : Dry-178 psi , Wet - 198 psi.

    Please do share your experiences/troubleshooting step by step guide/suggestions and recommendations.

    Link to Diagnosis Part 1

    Edit: The problem has been resolved to reasonable extent. Please refer to post #63 on page 4 for further information.

    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Quote Originally Posted by syncview View Post
    From where have you tried getting the carburettor adjusted?
    Sir I've tried it getting adjusted from 02 places. One from my old mechanic in Township, the second from a random workshop on college road. (Advised by a friend as he had his khyber's carburator serviced from him. But to be honest, i've never been to any Suzuki 3S workshops. And the carb has never been opened since factory assembly.

    To further add, i have tried getting the emissions tested once and the guy advised me to use carb cleaner additive for two fills. I went to him as my car was misfiring on petrol, my doubt was a lean mix. But his analysis was a CO figure in 7-8 whereas it was supposed to be in 3-4. I an unsure about the unit or what it should fall in, but those were the results. If its helpful to diagnose a carb problem, i can get it scanned again and post the report here.

    The issue is annoying me day by day. I even think about throwing out this engine and swapping with some efi one. But that would further bring tensions of its own as it would be a used engine and no one knows how it has been kept. If somehow this engine can give me around 12kmpl with liner response, i'll be more than happy.
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    u haves tested with the carb cleaner spray? - if you know someone with same model of cultus & friend can spare for few hours his vehicle complete distributor try a swap and run few kms. I still believe cuplrit is the distributor
    - www.crackwheels.com - A skilled Dictator is much more beneficial to Country......than a Democracy of Ignorant people

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    Default Update

    Today I had a detailed discussion with Mr. smijaz. He was very helpful in highlighting some ways to trace the source of problem. I've tested one (Vacuum advance operation) and the PCV test is yet to be conducted. The following links are for reference. Rotor Snap test seems to be Okay.



    However, i cannot seem to operate vacuum plate by suction. The tensioner inside the diaphragm is a tough one. However I can hold it in its place by blocking the passage. It snaps back again when vacuum is released.



    Finally, the plug-unplug effect of distributor vacuum hose on engine rpm.



    You fellows can be the judge and diagnose whether the advance mechanism is operating fine or not. I am going to check the PCV valve on this weekend.
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    I have to highlight one more thing. When i drive the car on petrol, the highlighted area always gets that light red shade (Petrol color). You can even see petrol through the air bleed.

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -360891

    Also if i try rev the engine and block the carb entry at the same time, the car chokes out and you can see a small pool of petrol just below the booster. I know thats called "RACE OVER KARNA" in local terms but it shouldnt throw in this much fuel in just 2-4 secs.

    Please also advise about the purpose of the following devices (Just for my info). One is mounted on the air cleaner besides CNG venturi...A vacuum operated device

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -360892

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -360893

    The other is mounted on the carburator. A plunger sort of thing.

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -360894
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Refresh!!
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Default Another Update

    Went to an analyser guy after work hours to get the timing checked.

    Its was
    19.6 Deg on CNG
    6.0-Deg on petrol.

    Opened up the STAP 00B dust boot. Adjusted the petrol timing to 12.3 Deg as per Mr. smijaz advice. Now the pick on petrol is jerk free and increased quite a lot. Havnt tested the 90-120 km response time yet.

    About Vacuum and Mechanical Advance, both are working fine. The vacuum plays its part from idle to about 2500rpm. As rpms increase, its starts with a fine advance of 3deg + (initail timing), then jumps to 8 deg + (initail timing). From there, mechanical advance plays its role from 0deg to 20deg + (initial timing) as the engine revs to 5000 rpm.

    So in a nut shell
    Vacuum Timing:
    19.6 -> 22.6 -> 27.6 in steps.

    Mechanical Timing:
    19.6->39.6 Gradually as the rpms increase.

    STAP 00B Adjustment
    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -363476
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Today, tested PCV valve and found it to be okay. When blowing into the PCV, one can feel resistance, its not fully open though. I was told that at first it would indicate resistance but when blown with somewhat higher pressure, it would fully open. But it didnt open fully.

    However, the following forum says its should not be fully open otherwise it would be a sign of stuck open valve.

    Tech TIps - PCV Valve

    Upon suction, one can feel that its clogged.

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -361471

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -361472
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Nice updates.

    Well PCV and both advance mechanism looks OK.

    Now its time to rule out plug wires and ignition coil one by one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smijaz View Post
    Nice updates.

    Well PCV and both advance mechanism looks OK.

    Now its time to rule out plug wires and ignition coil one by one.
    Sir my next plan is to change the wires with OEM ones. But i think i am gonna have to take vacuum advance into account one more time.

    Today i have been studying some articles about PORTED and Manifold Vacuum lines. I think the one going to the advance plate is from a ported vacuum line. Now what this vacuum line does is that it removes advance at complete idle thus allows increase in engine temperature by late burning a lean mix. This technique was used to improve emissions (somehow-atleast thats what i got)

    Now as soon as you increase engine rpm, the vacuum just above the throttle plate increases and engages vacuum advance. This goes on untill you reach WOT where this vacuum is no longer available. At higher revs and open throttle, centrifugal advance is available but vacuum advance disengages.

    NOW A HYPOTHESIS

    As i have observed and mentioned many times that

    (1) the vacuum plate offers so much resistance to rotate. There is not much friction in the plate but the spring in the vacuum actuator is quite stiff.

    (2)Also note that when i open the throttle in 4th gear to reach 100kmh and beyond, there are many times i feel that the pick just dropped in a snap. As if you turn the AC on. It occurs mostly around 2.7k to 3k rpm

    (3) On a timing light, the vacuum advance operated in a jump but not in a smooth way.

    My guess is, due to increased tension of actuator plus reduced vacuum from ported line at WOT, the vacuum advance disengages early before the mechanical advance can start playing its part.

    The question remains, how to test it. A person with detailed experience with timing curvez can easily verify this using a timing light. Normal road-side mechanics cant do it. They would rather throw in a new distributor without tracing the cause.
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    An example to explain Ported V/s Manifold vacuum.

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 - vacuum1
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Make sure that you are actually getting ported vacuum to the vacuum canister on the distributor, the port can clog with debris in the carburettor. If you see ignition timing advancing with jerks - it shows a sloppy centrifugal advance system, most probably a spring is weak, The timing should advance smoothly when seen with a strobe light.

    If its not and you are sure that everything is working perfect, bypass the STAP timing retarder and check timing.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Sir, with only the mechanical advance, the timing advances smoothly. Its only the vacuum advance when plugged-in that cases a sudden increase in 8-10deg right after idle. However it comes back gradually when throttle released. I'll also try to spary in some carb cleaner through that vacuum port on carb as well. But you can feel that vacuum is there

    By the way, How would one change the spring inside diaphragm. I dont think its adjustable via an Allen Key as it is with some aftermarket distributors. Should i change it with some other diaphragm??? Or is there a way to service it??

    Probably have to release the lock and remove the screw to get it out for inspection/replacement.

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -364234
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Also i've been going through the following document about vacuum differences. Its says something controversial about the ported vacuum.

    http://www.corvette-restoration.com/.../Timing101.pdf

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -364268

    Xulfiqar, capsat, smijaz..... your comments are awaited...
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Quote Originally Posted by rustam54 View Post
    Also i've been going through the following document about vacuum differences. Its says something controversial about the ported vacuum.

    http://www.corvette-restoration.com/.../Timing101.pdf

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 - 364268

    Xulfiqar, capsat, smijaz..... your comments are awaited...
    Read the whole article and I must agree with it in terms of benefits of full manifold vacuum for timing advance instead of ported vacuum.

    It should enhance the drive-ability and response between gear shifts. Also it may also increase fuel economy and be compatible with more degrees of idle (Static) advance upto 20 degrees for cng.

    So, as telephonically discussed earlier you should just try the manifold vacuum from one of the ports attached with A/C idle up solenoid and e-load idle up solenoid.

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    @rustam54

    Please also advise about the purpose of the following devices (Just for my info). One is mounted on the air cleaner besides CNG venturi...A vacuum operated device

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 - 360892

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 - 360893

    This is a temperature controlled by-metallic valve opens up when engine gets warm and bypasses a specific amount of air to the manifold leaning out the mixture fed to the combustion chamber

    The other is mounted on the carburator. A plunger sort of thing.

    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 - 360894

    This is a plunger valve its purpose is to spray fuel in to primary bore (barrel) when the accelerator is pushed. its nozzle is right beside primary booster. It avoids the jerk on acceleration

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    While servicing the carburetor of cultus which I am overhauling these days.

    I have noticed that the vacuum advance in cultus is connected to port in the throttle body which lies below the throttle butterfly. So it is driven by manifold vacuum rather than venturi / ported vacuum.

    It will advance the timing by 8 degrees once the engine is started and idling and will gradually let go till centrifugal advance takes over.

    I hope you got it.

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    interesting. In my case, the advance was only working above idle. Thats kinda strange considering its driven by vacuum advance and not ported.

    however, if thats the case, then why did the rpms increase (1.7k at idle) when i supplied the manifold vacuum directly via the three way vacuum port on manifold????
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    Default Another dead end - Ignition Wire Replacement

    Looked into the ignition timing with Mr. smijaz and it all seemed alright. Next step was to rule out the ignition wires. It was sunday and non of the quality shops were open. So as a starter, bought a cheap HT cable for coil to distributor connection. It read 0 ohms on the meter and I knew I was going to get noise in the speakers (EMF) and so i did.

    However the result was minor increase in engine response. It wasnt a placebo but only the regular driver could feel the change. The car was not lagging in 4 gear. Took it to a long route on motorway and it went 110~115. Sustained at that speed even in fifth gear. One can say, the lag shifted from 90~100 to 110~120. And i was sure that a replacement set can prove useful.

    So I went for the complete set on monday. Checked the resistances before buying and compared it to a friend 2010 cultus OEM cable specs as well. Found them to be OK (2.9~3.5 K Ohms). The sad part is, the engine is back to what it was doing before. The idle may be smoother (or may be not) but the over all response is disappointing. Falling short of DIYs now.

    The OEM Coil Wire:
    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -374721

    The Temporary Replacement:
    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -374722

    The New Wire Set:
    Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2 -374723
    The Soul's Journey After Death in Islam (www.bit.ly/SoulsJourney) -- Originally Shared by kse101

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    man - you are constantly facing a dead end.

    You have eliminated that the timing belt timing is correct, the coil is good, the s/plug wires are good, the fuel intake is good but still the engine feels lazy.

    how easy does your engine rev with no load, it should be snappy.
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    boy similar thing happened on my mehran a while ago and boy i know how much pain you are feeling coz i felt the same. i tried to replace coil, wires, point, service carburetor, diagnose clutch plate, check distributor but nothing worked. car continued to feel like dead no matter what.

    i loved my car but with heavy heart i decided that i had only two options. either to commit suicide or to sell the car. i opted for the second option and all the pain ended in a second.

    nonetheless you are learning something by this car but if this learning is causing pain and wasting your precious time then do what i did. and i didn't mean to undermine your efforts.

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