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Thread: Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota

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    Default Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota

    Having been out and about in my 4.0L petrol a few times now, I am still a little confused over the benefits of diesel vs petrol in 4x4s. As i understand, diesel engines have a huge advantage over petrol engines where the terrain has a lot of water. Are there any other advantages?


    Someone commented the other day that the diesels have more torque, which translates into more power off road. I don't totally agree with that. A true 4x4 low speed (range) petrol engine will have equal, if not more torque. Am I wrong in assuming so?


    Lastly, what is the performance of a diesel 1KZ-TE engine in a 4x4 like mine? Would it perform better than the original 3F in my RKR?


    RKR.
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Bhai logg?
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    @RKR
    mein Janj bhai se pooch kar bataonga
    When Nothing Else Work, Team Unimog has the Solution....

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    Rao,


    Diesel and Petrol engines are very different from eath other, as one is aware they are different types of fuel.


    A petrol engine creates combustion via taking in petrol and air, compresses it and then igniting it with a electrical spark.


    A diesel engine creates combustion via taking in air, compresses it, then is diesel is injected on to the hot air, creating a ignition.


    Petrols mostly run compression around 12:1 while Diesels run compression almost 22:1


    A higher compression means higer torque at lower RPM, while a low compression is produces lesser torque at lower RPM. Petrol has a early detonation while diesel has late detonation, so this means you can have more pressure at detonation. A typical example is that if you pop a petrol in high gear it starts knocking, that happens when the pressure created cannot create enough momentum to produce enough torque to accelerate, so the pressure starts skimming through edges of the piston rings.


    I am not implying Petrols are not good for 4x4, but rather explaining the differences.


    A Petrol has higher torque at higher RPM, therefore, a petrol engine mostly built to handle RPM around 6000, while diesels are nearly as high as 4000 max.


    A brief summary,


    A Petrol can accelerate very qucikly but it cannot handle loads.


    A Diesel is basically a donk, you can tow and put a lot of weight on it and it will carry on. I've got a diesel and when i put it in Low Range, i just have to pop in the first and leave there, don't even have to press the accelerator to get it climbing a ridge, but with a petrol you must have to have your foot on the accelerator.





    If a diesel has to climb a hill, no problem, but it has t go slowly, but if you it hit with a petrol at high RPM, you will be on top before the diesel knows you even passed him. Remeber Diesel is Muscle, Petrol is Martial Arts.B-)

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    @Sherwan_88
    Thanks for your reply and whilst I feel you are right 99% of the time, however, I don't fully agree this time around.
    Have you ever driven a petrol 3F engine? It is very similar to a diesel engine in terms of characteristics. I get 100% torque at 2000 RPM (all 300 nm). That's very diesel like. While it is 4000cc and has 6 cylinders, its as slow as a donkey, because its not a high speed engine. My redline is at 3750 rpm, that's very low. Very diesel like again. Could be the gearbox that lets hell loose at 2000RPM, but I never get a burst of horsepower like other petrol engines. Couple that with fuel consumption around 3.5 km/l and you can catch my drift with where I am headed. This engine is more like a crawler, or a climber engine.

    Having said that, I feel this is a difficult question to answer. You would have to have driven a 3F to know what I'm talking about.

    RKR.
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Rao,


    I know what you are talking about, take a diesel engine and a petrol engine, exactly the same.


    Still the compression is different, thus the torque is different.

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    Then how come we notice that a 4x4 with a 3F or even 2F will out-climb a 4.0L plus diesel engine of the same era? Am I on the wrong track with this? So what you're saying is that a diesel will always be more powerful than a petrol engine if all other things are constant? I really need help with this as I am really confused.

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Rao,


    First of all, never confuse torque with power.


    Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque


    Okay, if you take engines exactly the same engines with the same characteristics, a diesel will have more torque, it has higher compression, larger pistons and a larger crank and will be mostly made out of steel, but it will also have less clearance at the piston rings and they will be "tight", so therefore a diesel produces more torque, but the running cycle will be slow.


    On a petrol, compression is low, pistons are a bit smaller, clearance is high, because if petrol is compressed to much, you will have early detonation, which is not good. Now since petrol has early detonation it will ignite, so the 4 stroke cycle will be out of order, so when it is petrol there is lesser pressure created in the cylinder and there will be lesser force transferred to the pistons to the crank. Thus lesser torque.


    In a diesel you have high compression, so more force will be transferred to the crank, but higher compression means there is lesser clearance and more pressure, so the ignition cycle will be like a jerk and the return cycle a bit slow, that is the reason why diesel engines jerk/vibrate alot, while a petrol will run smooth.





    To make it very simple,


    Yes diesel has more torque compared to the petrol, but a petrol engine can catch momentum faster but not create enough torque as a diesel.


    The thing is an engine can be designed for any purpose one choses to achieve, whether diesel or petrol. In 2006 the AUDI R10 won the Le mans and set a lot of new race and speed records, worlds longest endurance race, it was a diesel. Take in mind that the principals are different for petrol and diesel, but they can be made for any purpose one desires, the common purpose of diesel is that it can tow a lot of weight, while a petrol engine is used to make a commercial economical car, many factors apply to an engines design and concept, not just power.

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    Got it, it makes sense now. I will tell you this though, the Arabs swear by there petrol jeeps, don't know why though. Thanks for your help buddy. Great insight. I will keep experimenting for the time being.

    Rkr
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    When you are in sand, speed is the key, sand is loose so if you go slow the sand will just expand and the car will sink, to counter that, one needs to build up instant speed and go like hell, also there is no grip so there is no need for torque, just higher RPM and higher rotations of the tire.


    You see when you go for a Safari, they just don't drive off like normal they hit it! and build up speed very quickly, and use very less brakes!

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    salam rao and sherwan

    bought a bj70 the other day with orignal 3b engine, which im planing to swap with either a 3RZ-FE. 2TR-FE or 1FZ-FE . is it possible to fit in these engines into a bj70 ?

    thanks!!

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    A very interesting Question .


    Diesel vs Petrol


    Ever wondered why trucks all over the world have diesel engines . One thing is common that they travel with humungous loads all the times at varying speed .


    Similarly , tractors and earth moving machines are always diesel engine driven .


    As an engineer , i would suggest that translate torque & HP as follows ( lay man approach)


    Torque : is ability to move


    HP : brute power /force


    Apart from the fact that diesels are compression ignition and petrols are spark ignited engines , the main difference is , e.g in a 100 HP engine


    Diesel : with have a higher torque value in comparatively low rpm range


    Petrol : will have the equivalent torque in relatively higher rpm range


    I disagree that petrol engine will perform any worse than a diesel engine in offroading. It ( performance)is a combination of engine ( HP / Torque curve w.r.t rpm) , 4 wd , tyres, suspension, selected gears ( High / low 4 x4 ) , differential locks etc . Last but not the least the entire mechanical combination( eng , gearbox, diff and tyres) is the real thing . GEt it right and your vehicle will probably match a V-8 thing . Get it wrong and a V-8 will be beaten by a inline 4 powertrain.


    Have you ever seen a Suzuki SJ 410 beat a hardcore Jeep . Yes ,atleast ,I have seen once outperfoming a wrangler . Suzuki SJ410 has a miser 1000 cc engine which is decades old in terms of technology . But the power to weight ratio is right ( atleast for deserts).


    One thing that contributes towards diesel perfoming better in low to medium rpm range is that it is directly fuel injected where as in petrol engines (direct FI ) is relatively new and quite complicated .Carborated petrol engine can equate by using half clutch but then while on your way back from offroading to home , a petrol engine will be miles ahead .


    BTW : I luv a petrol engine when it comes to comparasion with any diesel.


    TC

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    One more thing Guys


    R & D by engine manufacturers take into account the usage of the vehicle . e.g RKR are in pakistan mostly for army . Now a low rpm engine suits this duty for following reason :


    1- Long life


    2- Low cost ( to produce and to maintain if petrol cost is to be bourne by military)


    3- Simple in design


    the compression ratios of a diesel engine are in the bracke of 1:18 to approx 1:22 where as the compression ratio of a petrol hovers in the range of 1:6 to 1: 10 ( FOR non formula 1 level of technology engines)


    In order to not confuse this difference , the thumb rule , is that high rpm engine will have costly alloy metallurgy vs routine engines . This simply increases the cost due to R & D surcharge covered through sale cost . Similarly , a high rpm engine will have "white metal ' bearings instead of some brass bushings which again add cost .


    If someone is really interested in the engineering details of these engines and their difference , then I can work out to provide the thermodynamics involved . But trust me , it will be comlicated

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    Quote Originally Posted by raohamid


    Q#1= I am still a little confused over the benefits of diesel vs petrol in 4x4s. As i understand, diesel engines have a huge advantage over petrol engines where the terrain has a lot of water. Are there any other advantages?


    Q#2= Diesels have more torque, which translates into more power off road. I don't totally agree with that. A true 4x4 low speed (range) petrol engine will have equal, if not more torque. Am I wrong in assuming so?


    Q#3- Lastly, what is the performance of a diesel 1KZ-TE engine in a 4x4 like mine? Would it perform better than the original 3F in my RKR?


    RKR.










    Diesel's are heavier,
    Have less rev's,
    They stink,
    They vibrate the whole armature board
    They are more expensive
    Parts are more expensive
    Services are more expensive
    Maintenenance is just more frequent oil changes etc.

    I reckon nowadays, with diesel fuel being so expensive, petrol is the better alternative seeing that it will take several years of driving for the lower fuel cost to offset the extra initial expense of a diesel engine.



    Oh, they have more torque..

    If i need torque, i buy a truck,


    Merits

    The older diesel have proved to be extremely reliable, purely mechanical,

    No spark plugs,

    No HT leads to short out,

    Extremely dampen wet weather doesn’t bother them,

    oodles more pulling power

    oodles more miles per gallon

    ooodles more trouble free miles and they're built lot more stronger.

    No expensive electronics to go wrong,

    Exhausts last a hell of a lot longer.
    What makes 4x4Engaged? special is to discover secret places others cannot reach! ✓

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    Petrol


    Quite as buried alive

    Petrol is a lot more responsive in my experience.

    They are full of overtaking power and you get more acceleration per Revs than you ever would on a petrol model. boy racers stick to petrol

    Petrol RKR you are using with dual fuel i.e. GAS/Petrol

    Lower noise pollution,

    5000rpm -where diesel engines stop to work and real engines starts.

    Long List


    Don’t


    Just be careful not to get it wet, you know, those ignition electrics are pretty water sensitive.

    Oh how inefficient petrol engines are. Petrol engines; inefficient, lots of waste heat,


    Thinking will update soon
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    Q#3= Lastly, what is the performance of a diesel 1KZ-TE engine in a 4x4 like mine? Would it perform better than the original 3F in my RKR?



    RKR.






    [/quote]


    Do you need a answer
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    All,
    Thanks a lot for you replies, they have made a huge difference in my understanding. For the time being, I will not make any engine related changes because I feel the whole petrol vs diesel debate is very subjective and depends a lot on personal experience.

    Having said that, I also feel there are fewer people who have experienced petrol off roaders than those who have driven/kept diesel powered monsters. This is why it becomes subjective. It becomes even more that way when you talk about petrol 4x4s with native low range gearboxes. Having owned a "low range" petrol 4x4 and driven plenty of diesels, I must say the diesel turbos are much more enjoyable to drive in and around the city. In the rough stuff though, I think its more about what the entire package is as our friend said above in a post.

    According to Janj, there are advantages and disadvantages of both, and I agree.

    A very wise offroader (he'll know who he is), and the most experienced one i personally know, and the biggest lunatic I also know .... says he would prefer his diesel 4x4 for water, but for nearly everything else, he would rather be sitting in a petrol 4x4 he recently sold. I think that sums it up nicely, this is my opinion, everyone will have different ones.

    If I were to do it again however, i would probably go for a powerful diesel just to experience the difference if nothing else. What scares me though, is that when I visit a workshop for small things that need attention, I almost always, come across a diesel 4x4/SUV that has the hood popped and a really nice bill to go with it.

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Quote Originally Posted by sherwan_88



    Rao,


    Diesel and Petrol engines are very different from eath other, as one is aware they are different types of fuel.


    A petrol engine creates combustion via taking in petrol and air, compresses it and then igniting it with a electrical spark.


    A diesel engine creates combustion via taking in air, compresses it, then is diesel is injected on to the hot air, creating a ignition.


    Petrols mostly run compression around 12:1 while Diesels run compression almost 22:1


    A higher compression means higer torque at lower RPM, while a low compression is produces lesser torque at lower RPM. Petrol has a early detonation while diesel has late detonation, so this means you can have more pressure at detonation. A typical example is that if you pop a petrol in high gear it starts knocking, that happens when the pressure created cannot create enough momentum to produce enough torque to accelerate, so the pressure starts skimming through edges of the piston rings.


    I am not implying Petrols are not good for 4x4, but rather explaining the differences.


    A Petrol has higher torque at higher RPM, therefore, a petrol engine mostly built to handle RPM around 6000, while diesels are nearly as high as 4000 max.


    A brief summary,


    A Petrol can accelerate very qucikly but it cannot handle loads.


    A Diesel is basically a donk, you can tow and put a lot of weight on it and it will carry on. I've got a diesel and when i put it in Low Range, i just have to pop in the first and leave there, don't even have to press the accelerator to get it climbing a ridge, but with a petrol you must have to have your foot on the accelerator.





    If a diesel has to climb a hill, no problem, but it has t go slowly, but if you it hit with a petrol at high RPM, you will be on top before the diesel knows you even passed him. Remeber Diesel is Muscle, Petrol is Martial Arts.B-)









    Sb kuch tho pata dia ab mai kia patao......

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    Guys,


    This is a very controversial debate, but what i believe is that its a matter of choice for off-roaders,


    I own an M151 and a Nissan GQ


    The M151 is petrol stock 2.4L engine, and the GQ a stock diesel 4.2L, both are great off-roaders, but each of them was built for a different purpose.


    There is no such thing as "The Ultimate Off-Roader", all us want something more out of our vehicles, but the reality is we always can't get what we want, so why not take one's vehicle for granted once.


    Every vehicle is a beauty in its own way, remember "The beauty lies in the eye of the beholder".

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    do note,

    Diesels don't have alot of torque, turbodiesels do.
    Turbo diesels produce most of their power around 1200-1500rpm (where most offroaders need it)
    Diesel is widely available in PK
    Diesel fuel is cheaper
    1. A car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, 2. Resale wont save your life in an accident, 3. Genius has limits, stupidity has none, 4. Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level & beat you with experience, 5. Growing old beats the alternative -- dying young! 6. انّا للہ و انّا الیہ راجعون

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