Survey by Qualaroo
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 124

Thread: Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota

  1. #1
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    raohamid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Select City
    Age
    37
    Posts
    2,176
    Follows
    2
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota

    Having been out and about in my 4.0L petrol a few times now, I am still a little confused over the benefits of diesel vs petrol in 4x4s. As i understand, diesel engines have a huge advantage over petrol engines where the terrain has a lot of water. Are there any other advantages?


    Someone commented the other day that the diesels have more torque, which translates into more power off road. I don't totally agree with that. A true 4x4 low speed (range) petrol engine will have equal, if not more torque. Am I wrong in assuming so?


    Lastly, what is the performance of a diesel 1KZ-TE engine in a 4x4 like mine? Would it perform better than the original 3F in my RKR?


    RKR.
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

  2. #21
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    hash4u's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Islamabad
    Age
    38
    Posts
    24,379
    Follows
    18
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    406 Post(s)
    Tagged
    13 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    4
    Best Answers
    3
    Good Answers
    13

    Default

    it will be stupid to keep a diesel jeep in UAE

    same way i think its unwise to keep a petrol engine jeep in pakistan.

    diesel is cheap and gives better mileage and more low end torque (good for pulling power, or tough terrain offroading)
    plus 4x4 diesel mechanics are easy to find here

    Rao, 1kz will kick @ss in ur rkr
    Life is short and very unpredictable just like a Quarter mile .....

  3. #22
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    Storm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Select City
    Posts
    40,235
    Follows
    9
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    hash
    KP was plannign on doing the same conversion but everyone talked him out of it. an original RKR with it's original engine is MUCH better than a locally converted RKR with a 1KZ or 1KD (even though they are amazing engines).
    1. A car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, 2. Resale wont save your life in an accident, 3. Genius has limits, stupidity has none, 4. Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level & beat you with experience, 5. Growing old beats the alternative -- dying young! 6. انّا للہ و انّا الیہ راجعون

  4. #23
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    hash4u's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Islamabad
    Age
    38
    Posts
    24,379
    Follows
    18
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    406 Post(s)
    Tagged
    13 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    4
    Best Answers
    3
    Good Answers
    13

    Default

    only pakistan army or powder money can make u run a rkr freely on petrol
    it hardly does....3 -4 km per liter? wtf

    wats the use of a jeep u have to think twenty times before taking out because of fuel cost?
    Life is short and very unpredictable just like a Quarter mile .....

  5. #24
    PakWheeler Follow
    sherwan_88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Age
    28
    Posts
    894
    Follows
    1
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    32 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    Buy a honda, weld a live axle, and use that for off-roading, i'm sure it would be economical! i am not sure why people rant about the mileage, don't touch what you can't afford! you've bought the damn thing atleast you should be able to enjoy it and not just park it in the garage and stare at it.


    I get 7km/L from my GQ! Diesel! and 5km/L from my M151!, i got them when i was able to afford them. Want a cheap solution to your hobby, buy a Suzuki, i hear its fun......


    There is a saying which translates into "There is no price tag for a hobby".....

  6. #25
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    raohamid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Select City
    Age
    37
    Posts
    2,176
    Follows
    2
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm

    hash KP was plannign on doing the same conversion but everyone talked him out of it. an original RKR with it's original engine is MUCH better than a locally converted RKR with a 1KZ or 1KD (even though they are amazing engines).




    @Storm


    What were the deal breakers, Storm? Why didn't he go for it?
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

  7. #26
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    raohamid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Select City
    Age
    37
    Posts
    2,176
    Follows
    2
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hash4u

    only pakistan army or powder money can make u run a rkr freely on petrol it hardly does....3 -4 km per liter? wtf wats the use of a jeep u have to think twenty times before taking out because of fuel cost?




    Well, it does that crappy mileage for a reason, its got a native low range gearbox. Plus, as silly and stupid as it may sound, I don't have CNG connected right now, but the provision is there. I live in Lahore, I can go to Islamabad on the motorway on CNG, and when the going gets tough, I switch to Petrol.That's what I did for the 2nd Mud Rally, and it was my first ever time offroading, and we didn't do that bad. I hear the 1KZ is not the most fuel effecient engine either, a km or two per liter isnt going to make me any richer.


    However, I totally get what you're trying to say, I was feeling the pinch the first month I started driving on Petrol only. But you kinda get used to it after that





    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

  8. #27
    nn
    nn is offline
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    nn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Islamabad
    Posts
    12,094
    Follows
    2
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    @raohamid

    Turbo diesels would generally have more low down grunt, yes, but they run out of puff much earlier than petol. Overall diesel technology has moved leaps and bounds in last 10 years or so. Mind you, 1KZ is comparitively still old technology (early 90s).

    All engines are designed and made for specific vehicles/ use in mind, you can have much lower reving petrol engines such as yours or relitively higher revving in diesels as well.

    Top quality diesel engines don't generally do that well here in Pakistan due to diesel quality issue. Power and torque outputs from latest common rail engines are phenominal, e.g compare the top 2.0 litre diesel in BMW producing 204hp, vs Indus corrolla 2.0d producing 1/3 of that.

    Diesel has always been more popular for big transport vehicals because they are generally much more frugal and engines are built to last longer. But they have their own issues as well. Commonest being winter starting in the morning in colder regions, more frequent oil changes etc. Apart from recent german models the engine rattle noise is also significant issue (for me atleast).

    I have had diesel Pajero and VW Golf in the past and had several petrol cars and a 4X4. They all had their merits and de-merits. My current LC has 1FZ, and its lovely. Got 225bhp at 4600rpm and although max torque is 387NM at 3400rpm, over 350NM is available above 1100rpm, and actually 320NM at idle, so it has massive pulling power.

    I have driven a Prado TZ 1999 with 1KZ and believe me after 1FZ, it does not feel at all sprightly, infact sluggish! Granted, there is the consumption issue, 1KZ auto giving 6km around town with AC and 1FZ auto managing only 4.5km/litre (both with stable driving, not pushing hard). But than I think in the long run, lesser oil, filtesr and battery changes will even it out specially now that diesel costs the same as petrol. If you plan doing lots of motorway or long journeys than 1KZ managed 8.5-9.5km/l and 1FZ managed 6-6.5km/l. But all depends on the beast (your right foot)

    Overall I am currently in favour of petrol, and thats what I would advise you to stick with. Rest is obviously upto U!

  9. #28
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    raohamid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Select City
    Age
    37
    Posts
    2,176
    Follows
    2
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    ^^^^^ that sums it up pretty well. Thanks for taking time out for this. What would a 1fz-fe engine with gearbox cost since it has been one of my favorites for a while now only second to the 1uz-fe. Any idea?

    Rkr.
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

  10. #29
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    sami_voodoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Islamabad
    Age
    35
    Posts
    3,701
    Follows
    3
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    @raohamid


    I'm just adding my 2 cents here...


    Re: Resistance to water, I'm not sure if the newer diesel engines will fare better than comparable petrol engines. Diesels these days have a bunch of electronics as well, and granted they're not of the the high-tension variety, I'd still question their reliability during a proper dip in the pool.


    Re: Torque comparison, like @Storm said, you can only compare a turbodiesel to a petrol engine. The NA diesel has only better fuel consumption in its favour. It's heavier, less powerful, less torque etc etc...


    Even if a diesel engine has less torque as compared to a petrol engine, it gives a sensation of higher torque because of the way the diesel injector pump works. The pump tends to keep the engine at the same RPM under varying load by varying the amount of injected fuel. So you think that the engine has a lot of torque as it's taking everything in stride and you don't have to do anything to keep it from stalling (within certain limits of course).


    As a side note, I once saw an FJ40 with a turbocharged 3B that was churning out in the region of 390 lb-ft of torque. As it always happens, I can't find the link to it...
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

    A siren is just a woman's face on the body of a Tuna...

  11. #30
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    raohamid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Select City
    Age
    37
    Posts
    2,176
    Follows
    2
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    @voodoo
    you know, I think the last couple of explanations seem to sum things up nIcely. No doubt the newer deisels will have more electronics as compared to the older models. I agree with you one hundred percent, the varying gaps between both type of engines are steadily diminishing. today, I am happy with my petrol, but I would like to try out a diesel one day in the offroad.

    Rkr
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

  12. #31
    nn
    nn is offline
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    nn's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Islamabad
    Posts
    12,094
    Follows
    2
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    60 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    @RKR

    Sorry, I have no idea about replacement 1FZ engine + gearbox price. Mine is LC FZ100 i.e its original engine, not replaced.

    Possibly pakwheelers from Peshawer may be able to help.

  13. #32
    PakWheeler Follow
    sherwan_88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Age
    28
    Posts
    894
    Follows
    1
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    32 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    Turbo diesels have higher torque when they reach their optimum boost pressure, and they do run a lower compression than naturally aspirated diesels, at low revs there is no significant difference, but at high revs its a kicker, one also has to be careful with older turbo diesels as they have no wastegates and can create a lot of pressure and heat resulting in pistons being melted! That also contirbuted to the failure of Pajeros in the Pak market.

  14. #33
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    Storm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Select City
    Posts
    40,235
    Follows
    9
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    48 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by raohamid
    @Storm



    What were the deal breakers, Storm? Why didn't he go for it?

    main reason was that it was a "conversion" aqnd no matter who did it, it would not be as good as an original installation (at least not in PK). als othe cost of the conversion is quite hihg and if you offest that with the fuel bills and the amount you use the RKR it's not really that cost effective to go for the conversion (at least it wasn't is his case).

    this is also why i drive a petrol surf, the diesel was 10 lacks more and since i average 50km (fuel average of 6) a day it would have taken 16 years (at the old fuel prices) for a diesel to become cost effective.


    i'm a huge fan of the 1KZ and 1KD, but honestly the cost of the conversion and the finishing are the deal breakers in my opinion for most cars.
    1. A car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, 2. Resale wont save your life in an accident, 3. Genius has limits, stupidity has none, 4. Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level & beat you with experience, 5. Growing old beats the alternative -- dying young! 6. انّا للہ و انّا الیہ راجعون

  15. #34
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    sami_voodoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Islamabad
    Age
    35
    Posts
    3,701
    Follows
    3
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sherwan_88



    Turbo diesels have higher torque when they reach their optimum boost pressure, and they do run a lower compression than naturally aspirated diesels, at low revs there is no significant difference, but at high revs its a kicker, one also has to be careful with older turbo diesels as they have no wastegates and can create a lot of pressure and heat resulting in pistons being melted! That also contirbuted to the failure of Pajeros in the Pak market.



    Not all diesel engines run different CRs for turbo and NA applications. It depends on the turbo pressure to be used. A low CR engine is a slug off-boost, so manufacturers try to keep as high as possible CR.


    As for the wastegate bit, I'm not sure I agree fully. Case in point, the 4D56 turbo came with a wastegate and a pressure relief valve on the intake manifold to limit boost pressure. The worst that could've happened was that you'd lose a turbo due to overspeed if the wastegate stuck. IMHO, failures of that particular engine were due to prolonged high speed running combined with improper maintenance from what I've been able to gather.
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

    A siren is just a woman's face on the body of a Tuna...

  16. #35
    PakWheeler Follow
    jacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Karachi
    Age
    34
    Posts
    38
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    Guyz Listen

    Power=Torque X RPM

    Compare two engine diesel and petrol on basis of same power differnt camber volumes then Deisel --] High torque Low RPM Petrol Low Torque High RPM.

    Compare then with same chamber volumes Diesel low power Petrol High Power e.g My Nissan A15 was 80HP (when it was brand new) where as new 2C engine give 72 HP this is what manufacturers claim search the web.

    With Petrol engine and correct gearbox you can get torque equal to that of Deisel but at lower RPM. (POWER remain constant.)

    I am aso a Engineer and Willys CJ3A owner with A15 petrol enigne still working on its restoration due to small pocket but love for jeeps.

  17. #36
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    sarmadqureshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Karachi
    Age
    40
    Posts
    1,599
    Follows
    2
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by raohamid

    @voodoo you know, I think the last couple of explanations seem to sum things up nIcely. No doubt the newer deisels will have more electronics as compared to the older models. I agree with you one hundred percent, the varying gaps between both type of engines are steadily diminishing. today, I am happy with my petrol, but I would like to try out a diesel one day in the offroad. Rkr

    Rao, I feel deep down you are still inclined towards a diesel ........ so my friend whenever you chuck your Petrol engine out, do let me know & I'll buy it off you ..... on weight B-)
    TLC FJ90 SWB ~ 1KZ-TE ~ 50mm OEM Lift

  18. #37
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    Qaisrani's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Other
    Posts
    3,910
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    There are various arguments for the superiority of the both the petrol and diesel engines, much of which comes down to your driving habits and your personal preferences.

    Petrol cars are generally quieter and faster than diesel cars. If you want a high performance car, many agree that petrol is the only option. In addition, a petrol engine will start smoothly from cold, but this is not always true of a diesel engine.

    Diesel engines have more torque than petrol engines, making them better for towing. A modern diesel engine will have good pulling power which results in less gear changing when compared with a petrol car. Diesel cars are however noisier than petrol cars especially in cold conditions,
    Many believe a diesel engine will run for a lot longer than a petrol engine.
    Diesel provides better economy than petrol, given equivalent engine sizes. But against the 'straight' diesel engine is its lacklustre power, although the arrival of the turbo-diesel has put this right. TD engines perform like petrol engines, but full use of power will adversely affect fuel consumption. But common to both diesel and TD engines is their flat torque curves, which usually peak at between 2000 and 2500rpm. Clearly, a diesel car provides top pulling power at relatively low engine revs - ideal for towing. A petrol-engine towcar of between two and 2.5 litres, chosen for power and torque,will provide good restarts from rest, as well as hill-climbing and comfortable cruising. The TD is equal to this, but low-down torque gives it the edge on traction.
    I don,t believe in taking right decisions, i take decisions and make them right !

  19. #38
    PakWheeler Follow
    sherwan_88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sialkot
    Age
    28
    Posts
    894
    Follows
    1
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    32 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    Gentlemen,


    This discussion is a debate, and thus cannot reach a verdict, rather depends on satisfaction. Since the late fifties American Army trucks have produced the M-Series trucks, and a local example is the M35 (American Nickname: Duece). It was powered by a straight 6 petrol engine, load capacity 5tons on-road/2.5 tons offroad, total weight with cargo, approx 11 tons (On-Road). Does this mean the truck was underpowered, No.


    The fact is both forms can be manufactured to do the same job, the only thing is they use different forms of combustion, and of course run on different types of fuel.


    For a fact, diesel engines originated from running on Bio-Diesel known it was basically Vegetable oil back then, purpose was to provide the farming sector with a cheap solution agaisnt gasoline.


    My personal opinion is that, its all in the mind, the best way these days is to analyse your purpose and pick based on the advantages and disadvantages.


    I like the sound of the TD42 in my GQ, but if i'd have to change it, a LC Petrol V8 is more tempting.

  20. #39
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    raohamid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Select City
    Age
    37
    Posts
    2,176
    Follows
    2
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    I'm not trying to ignite an extinguished flame here, but has anyone changed their mind on this topic yet? One thing, and one thing alone bugs me, older diesels are better in water and in the sticky stuff. Period. This is after having experienced way too many mud tracks that a petrol engine should ever have to do in their life time. BUT, for everything else, I would prefer my petrol.

    One thing all too obvious to me now is how important a good suspension and a weight balanced vehicle is. More important than any engine. I do everything, but no rallying. I can easily feel the difference when I take out my CNG tanks (100Kgs plus) and when I put them on again (don't ask why). On climbs especially, the front becomes less heavy, disturbs the weight, and I loose traction when I least expect to, to counter this, I have to change shocks and get something that will force the tires down for traction action in the front. Its so much better when the car is left as it should be, the way it was designed.

    As you can see, I haven't changed my opinion that much, wondering if anybody else has.

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

  21. #40
    Senior PakWheeler Follow
    sami_voodoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Islamabad
    Age
    35
    Posts
    3,701
    Follows
    3
    Following
    0
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Problems Posted
    0
    Problems Solved
    0
    Best Answers
    0
    Good Answers
    0

    Default

    If you wish, I'll give you my honest opinion. For an off-road vehicle of a medium weight variety - the smaller LCs, Pajero, Rocky, converted Jeeps, etc. (basically up to 1.5 tons), I'd go for a mechanical fuel injected diesel engine with a fairly big turbo and automatic transmission. The mods, as far as the engine is concerned, would be a bigger radiator, oil cooler or oil/water heat exchanger, intercooler, snorkel and a good air filter (preferably with a cyclone dust trap of some kind).


    As good as EFI diesels are, I wouldn't bet on their ruggedness when exposed to water. Even though the electrics are designed to be sealed against all sorts of ingress, they can still go wrong. And when it does go wrong on the trail or somewhere far away, repairs are difficult or impossible. Either the vehicle would have to be towed back, or it would lumber back with the ECU in limp-home mode. Either way, you'd probably be wishing for a mechanical fuel injected diesel...


    As for petrol powered vehicles, I tend to think that they'd be good for lighter vehicles like the Samurai etc, or in the case of bigger vehicles if they stay away from mud. I'm sure I'll be taken to court for suggesting that petrol engines shouldn't be used in mud or wet terrain, but mud, sand, vibration, water, salt do not mix with high tension electrics. Sure, for rock-crawling or rally raids it's probably the better bet due to power-to-weight, but if you're doing a safari-type of off-roading, diesel should be it.


    raohamid


    Have you tried offsetting the weight distribution using the types of weights that are used on tractors for weighing down the front end?


    Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota -988783



    It's probably not the best thing for soft mud, but for steep inclines over relatively hard ground should give a bit more control and grip.
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

    A siren is just a woman's face on the body of a Tuna...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •