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Thread: Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota

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    Default Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota

    Having been out and about in my 4.0L petrol a few times now, I am still a little confused over the benefits of diesel vs petrol in 4x4s. As i understand, diesel engines have a huge advantage over petrol engines where the terrain has a lot of water. Are there any other advantages?


    Someone commented the other day that the diesels have more torque, which translates into more power off road. I don't totally agree with that. A true 4x4 low speed (range) petrol engine will have equal, if not more torque. Am I wrong in assuming so?


    Lastly, what is the performance of a diesel 1KZ-TE engine in a 4x4 like mine? Would it perform better than the original 3F in my RKR?


    RKR.
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacer

    Guyz Listen Power=Torque X RPM
    correction:

    HP=(torque x rpm)/5252
    1. A car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, 2. Resale wont save your life in an accident, 3. Genius has limits, stupidity has none, 4. Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level & beat you with experience, 5. Growing old beats the alternative -- dying young! 6. انّا للہ و انّا الیہ راجعون

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacer

    Guyz Listen Power=Torque X RPM
    correction:

    HP=(torque x rpm)/5252
    1. A car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, 2. Resale wont save your life in an accident, 3. Genius has limits, stupidity has none, 4. Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level & beat you with experience, 5. Growing old beats the alternative -- dying young! 6. انّا للہ و انّا الیہ راجعون

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo



    If you wish, I'll give you my honest opinion. For an off-road vehicle of a medium weight variety - the smaller LCs, Pajero, Rocky, converted Jeeps, etc. (basically up to 1.5 tons), I'd go for a mechanical fuel injected diesel engine with a fairly big turbo and automatic transmission. The mods, as far as the engine is concerned, would be a bigger radiator, oil cooler or oil/water heat exchanger, intercooler, snorkel and a good air filter (preferably with a cyclone dust trap of some kind).


    As good as EFI diesels are, I wouldn't bet on their ruggedness when exposed to water. Even though the electrics are designed to be sealed against all sorts of ingress, they can still go wrong. And when it does go wrong on the trail or somewhere far away, repairs are difficult or impossible. Either the vehicle would have to be towed back, or it would lumber back with the ECU in limp-home mode. Either way, you'd probably be wishing for a mechanical fuel injected diesel...


    As for petrol powered vehicles, I tend to think that they'd be good for lighter vehicles like the Samurai etc, or in the case of bigger vehicles if they stay away from mud. I'm sure I'll be taken to court for suggesting that petrol engines shouldn't be used in mud or wet terrain, but mud, sand, vibration, water, salt do not mix with high tension electrics. Sure, for rock-crawling or rally raids it's probably the better bet due to power-to-weight, but if you're doing a safari-type of off-roading, diesel should be it.


    raohamid


    Have you tried offsetting the weight distribution using the types of weights that are used on tractors for weighing down the front end?


    Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota -988800



    It's probably not the best thing for soft mud, but for steep inclines over relatively hard ground should give a bit more control and grip.






    I would try it, but not at the expense of a horrid approach angle like shown! But you are right, if I keep the tanks, I have to go out of the box for keeping the front end down.





    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo




    raohamid


    Have you tried offsetting the weight distribution using the types of weights that are used on tractors for weighing down the front end?


    Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota -988814



    It's probably not the best thing for soft mud, but for steep inclines over relatively hard ground should give a bit more control and grip.


    @sami_voodoo.... am interested to know where in pakistan i can get this weight... i need it for my unimog for rear....
    Still Play with Mogs... DeeMog 421.129 1986... http://www.youtube.com/user/DeeMog421
    http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/4x4-clubs-off-roaders-suv/87109-team-unimog-punga-project

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    DeeDee


    I once saw it a couple of years ago at a Sanati Numaish in Islamabad. I think you can go to the tractor dealers and ask for them. I've seen them in use on local machinery as well.
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

    A siren is just a woman's face on the body of a Tuna...

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo



    DeeDee


    I once saw it a couple of years ago at a Sanati Numaish in Islamabad. I think you can go to the tractor dealers and ask for them. I've seen them in use on local machinery as well.



    thx sami...will check badami bagh...
    Still Play with Mogs... DeeMog 421.129 1986... http://www.youtube.com/user/DeeMog421
    http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/4x4-clubs-off-roaders-suv/87109-team-unimog-punga-project

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    Waqai DeeDee, this would be ideal for the Mog.

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    common rail direct injection diesel engines have more torque and similar or more horsepower than an equal capacity petrol engine. theres harldy any vibration and they are much quiter than conventional diesels. the sulphur content in the diesel we get in pakistan is extremely high therefore such engines suffer in the long run due to extremely high pressure injection nozzles getting clogged up with sulphur.

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    An update since my previous post on this thread sometime ago.

    Since the previous post, I have had the chance to go with IJC trip to Noori top on my LC FZ100. Mine was the only one with petrol engine in the convoy. I had read few reviews before hand on 1FZ performance and it was described as having stump pulling torque/power and that was very much evident by the way the LC climbed to the saiful-malook lake without the need for even 4 X 4 engagement, let alone the need for 4 low. My navigators Fihsak would vouch for the ease with which we made it to the Lake, and even to Noori top the next day. I am not saying/ implying that the diesel vehicles were struggling, (their respective drivers would probably give better explanation about diesel engine performance) but 1FZ was never pushed on those climbs (and cheekily we also hit nearly 145-150kmph on a small flat section between naran and Jalkhad as well). It would have been nice if Cotec had come along with his LC 1FD, would have given me better bench mark for power /performance comparison for both on and off-road.

    My point is, it all depends what one wants as the main use of the engine. I do not believe that my petrol engine would be much worse off compared to most diesel engines around. My guess is that this petrol engine would take me where ever I am brave enough to take it. As mine is relatively new vehicle, I avoid intentionally the more treacherous stuff, mainly because of possibility of damage to vehicle and the subsequent much higher repair costs etc. Once that barrier of self restrain can be overcome!!!!! The limit is extended way way beyond!!!!! One can always get lift kits, bigger tyres, snorkels and people abroad have also put superchargers on 1FZ. Than I am sure all kinds of mud baths could be enjoyed in a much better way!!!

    Personally I am finding living with Petrol engine much friendlier. The morning starting/ clattering, the smoke n all, the issue of getting overheating in city traffic in summers with AC etc, these are all now forgotten. Only issue can be consumption, which doesn’t seem as bad on the pocket now as Diesel is now more expensive + requires more maintenance visits of oil and filter changes etc.

    The newer engines are obviously much better, be it petrol or diesel, the latest 4.5 V8 diesel with twin turbos in new landcruisers have common rail technology and power 260hp n torque 650NM are way beyond the 4.7 V8 petrol power 270hp n Torque 420nm (probably also due for update). So far have not heard any major complains about diesel quality issue in the new diesel V8 4.5s. But would one really want to take a LC200 for a mud bath/ rallying be it with diesel or petrol engine!!!!

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    ^^@ NN
    We don't need to ask anyone else. We believe you. Your 1FZ is not a "normal" petrol engine, it is perhaps the most feared recent day petrol 4x4 engine every built. That's why you were in 4x2 for the climb, you may even be able to do that climb on 4x1 next time!

    Seriously, heard your LC performed great by none other than your navigator. Actually, most people who sit with that navigator have a good time anyways but end up with stomach muscle pulls with all that laughing going on.

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    some discussion here....lovely guys...

    @RKR aka raohamid.... will search for it man...need of hour
    Still Play with Mogs... DeeMog 421.129 1986... http://www.youtube.com/user/DeeMog421
    http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/4x4-clubs-off-roaders-suv/87109-team-unimog-punga-project

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    Quote Originally Posted by nn

    An update since my previous post on this thread sometime ago. Since the previous post, I have had the chance to go with IJC trip to Noori top on my LC FZ100. Mine was the only one with petrol engine in the convoy. I had read few reviews before hand on 1FZ performance and it was described as having stump pulling torque/power and that was very much evident by the way the LC climbed to the saiful-malook lake without the need for even 4 X 4 engagement, let alone the need for 4 low. ...


    ...The newer engines are obviously much better, be it petrol or diesel, the latest 4.5 V8 diesel with twin turbos in new landcruisers have common rail technology and power 260hp n torque 650NM are way beyond the 4.7 V8 petrol power 270hp n Torque 420nm (probably also due for update). So far have not heard any major complains about diesel quality issue in the new diesel V8 4.5s. But would one really want to take a LC200 for a mud bath/ rallying be it with diesel or petrol engine!!!!

    Get this and you won't need to worry about the pesky 4.5 V8 in the LC200 B-)


    Titan Motorsports 1FZ de-stroked 3.5 l turbo


    Joking aside, I've tried to fish up specs on the 1HD-T, 1HD-FTE and the 1FZ-FE:


    1HD-T : 162 bhp @3600 RPM & 267 lb-ft @1400 RPM


    1HD-FTE : 196 bhp @3400 RPM & 317 lb-ft @1200-3200 RPM


    IFZ-FE : 212 bhp @4600 RPM & 275 lb-ft @3200 RPM (from an SAE paper of 1993)


    So essentially, it's a toss-up as far as power goes. As for torque, the diesel has about a 6th more torque and lower (assuming the turbo is already spinning of course) so there too, you wouldn't really feel much. What are the fuel consumptioin figures like though? If I had to make a guess, I'd guess around 6 for the petrol and 8 for the diesel.
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

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    When one switches to 4x4, one does not add power, but instead distribute it too all four wheels. The purpose of 4x4 is basically to provide power to all wheels so when offroad, you get all wheel traction rather than having the front wheels sitting dead. 4x4 or 4x2, when climbing a hill it does not matter , torque matters.


    The petrol or diesel debate has been on since the ever, the simple answer is to that question is, "it all depends on what you want". One can fine with both of them, its just a matter of personal choice.


    If it was me i'd stick to my TD42, but i'f offered i won't nbe able to resist a LC Petrol V8.

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    @ sami

    Specs on my 1FZ are slighly different, I am quoting from my original owners manual/ handbook Power 225bhp/4600rpm n torque 285lbft/387nm at 3400rpm. The torque available at idle is actually over 300nm and at 1100rpm its over 350nm so plenty.

    @ Sherwan

    The petrol LC V8 upto 2006 was not significantly different to 1FZ, i.e power was 230bhp and torque 410nm at almost simlar rpm range, only in 2007 the 1UZ was upspeced to 270bhp with same torque, and that only because the newer Prado 4.0vvti produces 260bhp, so they had to make the 4.7 make more power, obviously the 4.0 vvti produce much lesser torque.

    My reason for mentioning 4x2 climb to saiful-malook was to demonstrate the torque. As you may be aware there are some steep icy/ muddy patches as well a glacier on the way and even there with the enormous torque I could just coax the throtlle gently and get up without spinning wheel unnecessarily and therefore the absence of need for engaging 4X4!

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    Ok, quick update. For mud, definitely diesel is the way to go as I found out in our event last weekend. I hate distributors.

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Rao,


    Having problems with distributor building moisture? Here is a trick, remove the distributor cap, take some silicon, draw around the sealing edge, be sure to put enough that it seals good, and not much that it is pouring out. Put the cap back on and let it dry off.





    Here's a few of what i do with mine,


    Petrol:



    object data=http://i610.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid610.photobucket.com/albums/tt188/sherwan_88/1.flv" height=361" type=application/x-shockwave-flash" width=448"
    param value=http://i610.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid610.photobucket.com/albums/tt188/sherwan_88/1.flv" /
    param value=transparent" /
    /object






    Diesel:




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    ^^^My word! Where's the bow wave old chap?
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

    A siren is just a woman's face on the body of a Tuna...

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    Sami,


    You don't see any bow waves because cars dont have bows...


    But you can see the waves off the wheels....

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    Quote Originally Posted by sherwan_88



    Rao,


    Having problems with distributor building moisture? Here is a trick, remove the distributor cap, take some silicon, draw around the sealing edge, be sure to put enough that it seals good, and not much that it is pouring out. Put the cap back on and let it dry off.









    Sherwan, good advice and taken.





    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Quote Originally Posted by sherwan_88



    Rao,


    Having problems with distributor building moisture? Here is a trick, remove the distributor cap, take some silicon, draw around the sealing edge, be sure to put enough that it seals good, and not much that it is pouring out. Put the cap back on and let it dry off.









    What do you do for the part where the plug wires connect to the distributor body? Do you silicone those too? Or let them be?





    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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