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Thread: Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota

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    Default Petrol vs Diesel - Toyota

    Having been out and about in my 4.0L petrol a few times now, I am still a little confused over the benefits of diesel vs petrol in 4x4s. As i understand, diesel engines have a huge advantage over petrol engines where the terrain has a lot of water. Are there any other advantages?


    Someone commented the other day that the diesels have more torque, which translates into more power off road. I don't totally agree with that. A true 4x4 low speed (range) petrol engine will have equal, if not more torque. Am I wrong in assuming so?


    Lastly, what is the performance of a diesel 1KZ-TE engine in a 4x4 like mine? Would it perform better than the original 3F in my RKR?


    RKR.
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    @sami_voodoo

    Yup that's the edge on the gasoline motor....rev happy!!! Back in the escudo/vitara times of my young rally days, stayed happily around 5000-5500( redline being at 6) and the car had no hiccups at all....good motor oil and high octane combo........hard to break them apart!!!!
    MEN DO IT AT DAKAR!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MITSU_MAN View Post
    @RKR

    Bud, forgive me for missing out on this INTERESTING thread (it said TOYota....solid reason to stay away eh??).... but after going through this, I am willing to shoot myself (only in the foot if you insist)!!! Keeping rallying apart (which is fast becoming a FILTHY rich man's sport here) and focusing on the off-road pranks that we undertake.....this thread has answered most of my worries as I was a bit dicey on replacing my faithful 4D56( parked in Isloo and used for touring North with ORAD) with a similar gen 6G72!!!!

    Humbly put.... does smell very nice once you fire one up....especially on a cold morning with that steam/water thing from the tail pipe!
    The power/torque/BHP....anyday better (in comparison to my poor ol' 4D56 only).
    Gasoline IS getting cheaper!!!
    Even if I am unlucky (and lucky enough to keep the electrics out of the equation) to suck up water in my engine while fording, don't need an overhaul......diesels are notorious for bent rods, ain't it so????
    Lesser pit stops for oil/filter changes.
    No vibration/hum.....best of the best diesels have 'em!
    Though it ain't no V8 but still love that 'V' growl (no grunts) when you floor it.

    My mind is all set.....RAO, gasoline is it....stick to yours!!!

    @JANJ.....you've got it all RIGHT 100%.

    Mitsu! Ma main man! I was wondering what kept you away from eating away this thread. Actually, the thread is pretty old.

    I will put away this thread and end this debate the possessive way by saying that I firmly feel Petrol is the way to go!

    I was at a 4x4 Engaged event last week, we were in the sand, the arab way, and I crap you not, the petrols were eating away. For that terrain, the diesels are not as good. Period.

    I only see an advantage to go the old D when there is water, and that too, the older Ds will be able to manage unscathed only.

    IT IS WHAT IT IS, Petrol powaaaa.

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Default

    Spot on^ :p

  5. 05-12-2009, 08:03 PM

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    I dont know about Mr. Bushi pajeros but if its land cruiser then for offroading or fun and for the real feel of driving a proper landcruiser i prefer diesel, 1HDFTE or 1VDFTV but for on road as a daily drive SUV then petrol is better.

    I think for 70 and 80 series diesel is much better. The best engine for 70 series serious offroading is either 13bt or 14bt, 1KZTE latest gen is nice if you are new but I have it and they are gutless when you drive 1hdfte.

    Other than that the L series and K engines are pathetic. I far prefer 1FZFE over it.

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    Apples and oranges, diesel and petrol engines. An NA diesel will be kicked into the middle of newt week by an NA petrol engine. Typically, for the same engine size, the diesel will be around 20% down on torque. Combined with the fact that the diesel can't spin as fast as a petrol (everything to do with the rate of diesel combustion and nothing to do with how "heavy" the internals are) and you've got a loser on your hands.

    However, the diesel engine can lug from near idle RPM, where a petrol might knock itself silly, or at the very least, the knock sensor (if so equipped) will retard timing to quell knock while killing torque. This is what makes a diesel feel "torquey". It's got all of it's power at the low end and at the higher RPMs, it runs out of ideas.

    Add a turbo to a diesel, and you might go above petrol engine in torque while being lower or matching it on power. Adding a turbo to a petrol engine isn't as easy as adding a turbo to a diesel, so you'll find more turbo diesels than turbo petrols in 4x4s.

    I should also add that petrol engines in the same 4x4 are (or were) generally bigger than the diesel counterpart, increasing the difference even further.
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

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    sami_voodoo,
    No offense, but i don't understand how spinning faster/slower has a direct effect on torque as momentum and torque two different things and should not be confused?

    I am a little low on tech stuff so tend to ask and learn from people, so don't take my asking as a sort of an attack (because people on PW usually do).

    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo View Post
    Apples and oranges, diesel and petrol engines. An NA diesel will be kicked into the middle of newt week by an NA petrol engine. Typically, for the same engine size, the diesel will be around 20% down on torque. Combined with the fact that the diesel can't spin as fast as a petrol (everything to do with the rate of diesel combustion and nothing to do with how "heavy" the internals are) and you've got a loser on your hands. .

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    Quote Originally Posted by sherwan_88 View Post
    sami_voodoo,
    No offense, but i don't understand how spinning faster/slower has a direct effect on torque as momentum and torque two different things and should not be confused?

    I am a little low on tech stuff so tend to ask and learn from people, so don't take my asking as a sort of an attack (because people on PW usually do).
    I would be cheesed if you didn't ask questions

    As for the speed thing, I was unclear, what I wanted to say that power being a product of torque and RPM, a diesel engine producing less torque and running slower would produce a lot less power than a petrol engine of comparable size.
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

    A siren is just a woman's face on the body of a Tuna...

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    Lets talk engines my friend! at last somebody!

    You are right, diesels and petrol are very different with power output.
    The problem with diesels is that you ought have a very high compression to have an effective combustion, because there is no external secondary ignition, which renders it incapable of handling high RPMS. It needs to made completely out of steel. This makes the engine very heavy, with the camshaft in the block you get retarded timing, only two valves per cylinder really blocks the power and with that pre chamber a lot of power is wastes, and worst of all, most are under square engines. The only benefits i see in them is they put out a lot of torque compared to the tiny amount of HP they produce, are easy to maintain and are somewhat reliable based on their simplicity.

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    @RKR

    Good to hear from you.....is that 4M40 Shogun alive and kickin' too??? You have my vote on the Gasoline motor anyday.....should I start looking for a V6 for you?????

    @syncview

    That's better calculation according to the current times....100% it is!!!

    @sherwan88

    Now that's being modest....you are pretty technical without a doubt!!! That masterpiece DAALAA patrol of yours says it all.

    @saaduk

    Whether you like it or not, MIIIISSSSSTUUUUUBBBEEEEESHHHEEEEE( just love the way the local mechanics pronounce it) FOREVER, amigo!!!

    @sami_voodoo

    Whatever you put across in favour of diesels MAY be the case but hey, (....though it did dawn a bit late on me), PETROL it ought to be!!!!
    MEN DO IT AT DAKAR!!!

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    Dear Friends, I am trying to post a reply for the last few days-can not for some obscure reason!
    Well, I would like to add some personal, mainly Non-technical Observations:
    • Firstly, the Round-trip capabilities of Diesel engines are better as compared to petrol, when we consider vehicles of similar age, fuel tank capacities and engine displacement
    • Secondly, We are more confident of finding diesel, compared to petrol, in difficult-to-access areas (mainly due to diesel being used in local transport, and generators, etc.)
    • Thirdly, it is relatively smaller of a risk to carry diesel in a non-secure open type cans, as it is not ignited by a spark
    So, for people like myself, where we are regularly out in the wild, without much help and support available, Diesel is prefereable. However, these arguments do not hold true for FUN Off-Roading, where access is relatively easier, and support is available (usually group activities)
    I am out-dated, out-moded, and not a very technical person, so do not take my words very seriously !
    Irfan
    Ranger of the North---Didn't Get Any Speeding Ticket While I had the Unimog. Since I bought a Cruiser, I get a speeding ticket every now and then.

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    @ranger-_ofthe_north

    Your input is valuable and based on experience....agreed!!! But please allow me to suggest that do try and take a gasoline motor offroad sometime and judge for yourself.....ofcourse we are all diverse in our opinions too!!!
    MEN DO IT AT DAKAR!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger_ofthe_North View Post
    Dear Friends, I am trying to post a reply for the last few days-can not for some obscure reason!
    Well, I would like to add some personal, mainly Non-technical Observations:
    • Firstly, the Round-trip capabilities of Diesel engines are better as compared to petrol, when we consider vehicles of similar age, fuel tank capacities and engine displacement
    • Secondly, We are more confident of finding diesel, compared to petrol, in difficult-to-access areas (mainly due to diesel being used in local transport, and generators, etc.)
    • Thirdly, it is relatively smaller of a risk to carry diesel in a non-secure open type cans, as it is not ignited by a spark

    So, for people like myself, where we are regularly out in the wild, without much help and support available, Diesel is prefereable. However, these arguments do not hold true for FUN Off-Roading, where access is relatively easier, and support is available (usually group activities)
    I am out-dated, out-moded, and not a very technical person, so do not take my words very seriously !
    Irfan
    Irfan,

    I couldn't agree more, diesel is way better considering for practicality, economy, ease and for tough terrain and crude usage.

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    simple buddy.....diesel engines r more powerfull than petrol engines........
    itna b nai pta......kiddin!!
    Life is a game, play it; Life is a challenge, Meet it; Life is an opportunity, Capture it.

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    Default Gasoline Experience !

    Thanks friends,
    I have recently bought a gasoline + CNG powered vehicle. This is a long-wheel-base Daihatsu Rocky.
    Soft Top.
    I thought it was a beautiful vehicle. So bought it. And with all due apologies, am planning to convert it into Diesel. However, for the next couple of months, where I am short of Money, I am planning to use it as it is. So, I may be able to share something about petrol after some time !

    And please do not mis-understand my comments, those are just simple, non-technical things. Just Personal Philosophy.

    I have posted a new comment of Baba's Corner. Please do read it, as I expect this to generate some interest. I am going to start a new thread on this as well Hope to have your inputs.
    Ranger
    Ranger of the North---Didn't Get Any Speeding Ticket While I had the Unimog. Since I bought a Cruiser, I get a speeding ticket every now and then.

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    Thanks Sherwan_88, and Raza-Haq Saheban for your agreement. Of Course, All Friends have their own views, and that is the beauty of discussion!
    Ranger of the North---Didn't Get Any Speeding Ticket While I had the Unimog. Since I bought a Cruiser, I get a speeding ticket every now and then.

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    Ranger_ofthe_North

    No need to apologise sir! We've been up this "diesel this, petrol that" road quite a few times. We also enjoy some occasional "sparring".

    Since I've worked with diesels quite a bit, I'm a bit partial to them. It's for the same reasons that I know what their shortcomings are, and where petrol engines are needed. As far as your observations of diesels are concerned, I agree with them 100%. It is for that same reason the whole of the US military is running on diesel, even their bikes. It's easier to store, doesn't degrade over time as petrol, and it offers about 10% more energy per litre than petrol. Besides, diesel engines can take a wide variety of oily liquid fuels happily, while petrol engines need quite a bit of tuning for each different type of fuel.

    I (we) hope to see you on these forums for a long time to come, so make yourself at home.

    Regards,
    Sami
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    Here we go again!

    You guys had to wait until I said Petrol was the way to go to side with Diesels, and when I was firing the Diesel horn, everyone was firing my horn

    Just to further this discussion, you will agree out of the recent commercial petrol engines, the Nissan 4.8VTC is exceptional. At least in the sand. How would it perform offroad, on the hills, and at obstacles? If it would perform very well, then please give me an equivalent diesel engine that would perform the same or better. Please don't tell me the diesel Toyota 4.5 Turbo Multivalve motor would cream it, I have seen its performance and was not impressed compared to a similar Petrol powered engine.

    MitsuMan- hold.... hold..... didn't mention the newer Mitsu's on purpose.

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    As far as displacement goes, I'd be tempted to match the Nissan 4.8 with the Toyota 4.5 single turbo V8 diesel as in the Landcruiser 70. The diesel produces around 40 bhp less than the petrol, but produces around 20 lb-ft more. Also, since it come in the LC 70 platform, the off-roading capabilities should be quite good.

    If on the other hand we're going for inline sixes, then the only answer is the 1HD-FTE. That too, is down on power as compared to the 4.8 while being slightly better in torque. One can always tweak the diesel though. 20-30% extra not being unreasonable.

    If you're talking about an open "challenge" for BHP and torque, I'd advise you to get a 5.2 litre Detroit Diesel 6V53T, also available in aluminium block. 275-350 BHP and upto 770 lb-ft of torque. It'll twist any transmission into spaghetti. The cast iron version weighs a lot though, about 1700 lbs

    Another challenger is the 6.5 V8 turbo diesel in the Hummer H1. This one is a relatively light engine though, weighing less than 300 kgs. Turbo charged, it will give 215 BHP and 440 lb-ft. Being a pushrod engine, it's apparently not very big, as it fits reltively easily into the engine bays of Discoveries, Defenders and older Range Rovers.
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

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    Crap, I just read somewhere that the Toyota 1VD-FTE bi-turbo diesel produces 650nm of torque!!!!!! THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!!!

    Mitsu?

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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    Okayyyyyyy. This is getting crazy. Google the newest Toyota 3UR-FE, 381 horses, and 543nm of torque"s". You can get a bloody bolt on supercharger from TRD for it also, result = 505 horses.

    GOD DAMMIT! Screw the VTC. Ye arbi logg kyaa istimaal kartay hain?

    RKR
    I will miss her, that RKR. She will always be the one that got away.
    But, life goes on. From RKR to MMC. 4x4 Engaged? Team Unimog, Pakistan

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