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Thread: The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga

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    Default The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga

    Well I guess all the hp and ft.lbs talk and no dyno got to me in the end and I finally found myself with the guys at HPR Islamabad requesting some for wheelspin on my lightweight diesel 4x4. And before everyone gets all excited... the pics do look better than the results The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga - icon e smile

    The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga - filephp?id3936


    The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga - filephp?id3943



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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    @Sami_Voodoo and Xulfiqar: Many thanks for your feedback on the thread and your continued interest.

    @Sherwan: No problems on discussion any side topics as long as they remain relevant. All turbo charged diesels generally have similar issues and considerations from what I understand.

    I have been away with IJC on the whirlwind Summer Camp 2010 tour and will get around to putting down some points, though I must admit that the discussion on IP dynamics and metrics is way beyong my level at thyis stage. I had thought that I had posted a few things regarding the boost compensator but I think the post got lost somewhere in the prepartions when I was leaving.

    BTW: the 2LT performed very well on the trip, touch wood, and the overfuelled IP and high boost enabled the engine to keep up with the big boys running them TEs and FZs where required. By the end however, I was getting complaints of a huge smoke trail at the back on full acceleration but I guess that is somewhat expected with these games. The engine was smoking the most when the boost and the turbo had not kicked in at full acceleration. No smoke if I managed the accelerator at the low end and no issues once the boost kicked in.
    Nice to hear you're having fun with your 2L-T. A colleague of mine has just bought a beater FJ73 for €800 here in France. I sent him a repair manual for the engine and told him to keep an eye on the cooling system (flush it and verify that it's working properly), and told him to be careful with boosting the vehicle so he doesn't overheat it. I've only heard of head cracking problems due to overheating (for the most part) with 2L-Ts but have no personal experience whatsoever. Not that I'm bashing the 2L-T in any way, but for him being careful would not hurt.

    Is this your first foray into 2L-T ownership? I've read opinions from both sides of the fence regarding the robustness (or lack of) of the head. Have you had any experiences with it? The people whose opinions I've heard are very respectable and knowledgeable, so it may be down to personal experience.

    I would still advise you, if possible, to go for an EGT gauge. That in my opinion is worth its weight in gold. It will remove almost all the guesswork out of tuning your engine. I say almost, because to really know what's going on inside your engine, you need a real-time cylinder pressure measurement system which is horribly expensive and fragile. Thus, for the most part, a boost gauge and an EGT gauge will let you tune your engine in relative safety, assuming the tuner knows what he's supposed to do.
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    Put in a inter cooler and you'll see a difference.

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    Default Update!

    Its been a while since that dyno test and since then I have figured out (or at least observed) a few things on the behaviour of my engine:

    - With a boost guage permanently connected, I can confirm that with all things hooked up my turbo is in a massively overboosted setting, as I can read upto 18psi at full throttle. Readings also tally with a second boost guage hooked up by @charged which read 1.4 bars.

    - I don't have an EGT guage hooked up but the car apparently does not have a tempareture issue on normal roads. However, on the motorway when doing speeds in excess of 100kmph where the turbo consistently reads at least 6-8psi, the temperature guage tends to start rising towards the danger zone after a while.

    - On my recent M2 trip to Lahore, being unable to hold speeds beyond 100
    kmph, I decided to remove the caps on an extra T connector between the turbo and the boost controller. With the turbo leaking pressure the guage dropped to a max reading of 8-10 psi (close to factory settings) and the temperature issue disappeared.

    - On further testing with the two settings I realised that the pick-up is actually better at 8-10psi than at 18psi. At the higher pressure, the first two gear are a blast but once I get to third gear the engine seems to whistle and roar a lot but does not give any real push beyond 2500rpms.

    I am assuming that the higher pressure is pushing down the boost controller all the way down and hence cutting off the fuel supply at higher rpm / full spool. In addition, the waste gate is probably kicking in at 13-14psi and just throwing away the additional pressure, though I am not sure if the guage would still read 18psi if that was happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    Its been a while since that dyno test and since then I have figured out (or at least observed) a few things on the behaviour of my engine:

    - With a boost guage permanently connected, I can confirm that with all things hooked up my turbo is in a massively overboosted setting, as I can read upto 18psi at full throttle. Readings also tally with a second boost guage hooked up by @charged which read 1.4 bars.

    - I don't have an EGT guage hooked up but the car apparently does not have a tempareture issue on normal roads. However, on the motorway when doing speeds in excess of 100kmph where the turbo consistently reads at least 6-8psi, the temperature guage tends to start rising towards the danger zone after a while.

    - On my recent M2 trip to Lahore, being unable to hold speeds beyond 100
    kmph, I decided to remove the caps on an extra T connector between the turbo and the boost controller. With the turbo leaking pressure the guage dropped to a max reading of 8-10 psi (close to factory settings) and the temperature issue disappeared.

    - On further testing with the two settings I realised that the pick-up is actually better at 8-10psi than at 18psi. At the higher pressure, the first two gear are a blast but once I get to third gear the engine seems to whistle and roar a lot but does not give any real push beyond 2500rpms.

    I am assuming that the higher pressure is pushing down the boost controller all the way down and hence cutting off the fuel supply at higher rpm / full spool. In addition, the waste gate is probably kicking in at 13-14psi and just throwing away the additional pressure, though I am not sure if the guage would still read 18psi if that was happening.
    Good stuff! Please keep us posted.

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    @VCheng: Thanks for the interest!

    Just to add a few things and to elaborate the point, here are a few pics of the engine I took sometime back (damn, I should have serviced the thing beforehand, but hey its a Jeep : )
    The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga - filephp?id3956

    Yes MitsuMan thats a Pajero airbox The pump and the boost compensator's cap:
    The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga - filephp?id3957

    Close up of the boost compensator cap:
    The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga - filephp?id3958

    Now with reference to the M2 story above, what I essentially did was created a partial leak (by removing an extra cap) in the pipe you see going into the boost compensator. The boost compensator and the boost gauge both remained connected and I could read off the boost which dropped from around 18psi (everything connected) to 10psi (with partial leak) at wide open throttle.

    Now a very simple question I have is whether after creating the leak:
    (a) does the turbo now actually run a lower pressure 10psi? or
    (b) does the turbo continue to run at 18psi or so and it just feeds 10psi into the boost compensator and the gauge?

    I am hoping that the case is (a) which fits in well with my overall conclusions though I briefly spoke @Charged and his view was (b) though I am not sure I was able to fully explain the situation. Not sure if the above is any clearer but I am hoping the turbo gurus will pick it up
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    @VCheng: Thanks for the interest!

    Now a very simple question I have is whether after creating the leak:
    (a) does the turbo now actually run a lower pressure 10psi? or
    (b) does the turbo continues to run at 18psi or so and it just feeds 10psi into the boost compensator and the gauge?

    I am hoping that the case is (a) which fits in well with my overall conclusions though I briefly spoke @Charged and his view was (b) though I am not sure I was able to fully explain the situation. Not sure if the above is any clearer but I am hoping the turbo gurus will pick it up
    If I understand your question correctly (and am not mistaken), your boost compensator will be "seeing" 10 psi, and will enrich accordingly - that is to say, not much. That said, seeing that in a diesel, boost is related to fueling quantity, what you've unwittingly or wittingly created is a rudimentary boost "controller".

    When you reduce the pressure on the boost compensator down to 10 psi, it will inject according to 10 psi. This will slow down the turbo, until it is producing just enough pressure to cover the difference due to leakage in the pipe.

    If you close the leak, the boost compensator sees the full pressure, say 10.1 or 11 or 12 psi, then it increases fueling, which increases boost further, more fuel, more boost and so on until the waste gate puts a stop to the action at 18 psi.

    @all others - please feel free to comment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo View Post
    When you reduce the pressure on the boost compensator down to 10 psi, it will inject according to 10 psi. This will slow down the turbo, until it is producing just enough pressure to cover the difference due to leakage in the pipe.
    @sami_voodoo: Thanks for that and your many excellent responses earlier.

    Firstly, I think the quoted passage above tends to lead me to conclusion (a) above i.e. that the turbo is actually running at 10psi and I am not getting a false reading. Also this gave a better visualization of the whole process though there is one point which I need to clarify with reference to the boost compensator operation particularly the metering rod inside it (shown in my photograph below, sorry for poor pic):

    The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga -139950

    My impression and understanding is that the boost compensator and the pin at its stock settings would be designed to work at 8-12psi of boost. At boost beyond a certain pressure (lets say 12psi) the metering rod (seen above) would be pushed down beyond the point where the accelerator pin was in the scooped area. This would cut back the extra fuel that the boost compensator was supplying while the pin was in the scoop. Hence, I would imagine that at 18psi with the rod forced way way down the boost compensator would definitely have cut back the extra fuel that it was supplying in the 8-12psi region.

    If the above is correct then we would also have a decent explanation for better acceleration at 10psi not to mention the power drop seen on the curve beyond a certain RPM as the turbo comes up to full spool.
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    Let me add something that may or may not be useful.

    The turbo makes the same "boost" for a given exhaust flow and van geometry, that is, the impeller side will compress a given volume of air given the turbine side speed.

    It is the job of the plumbing and the boost controller to allow a certain level of pressurization of the intake tract on an engine, by either bypass, limitation or bleeding.

    I am ignoring the effects of back-pressure here, but that is intentional.

    I just thought that I'd suggest that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VCheng View Post
    Let me add something that may or may not be useful.

    The turbo makes the same "boost" for a given exhaust flow and van geometry, that is, the impeller side will compress a given volume of air given the turbine side speed.
    You've missed temperature. Hotter gasses have greater energy to impart to the turbine and hence more boost. In petrol engines, you can play around with air/fuel ratio and ignition timing to affect a change in EGT, while in diesel engines you can do more or less the same with injection duration and timing.

    Assuming that your wastegate opening and engine speed (volumetric flow rate) are the same, changing injection parameters will impart more or less energy to the turbine causing it to spin faster (increasing mass flow rate of air by increasing pressure ratio) or slower (decreasing mass flow rate of air by decreasing pressure ratio).
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    @sami_voodoo: Thanks for that and your many excellent responses earlier.

    Firstly, I think the quoted passage above tends to lead me to conclusion (a) above i.e. that the turbo is actually running at 10psi and I am not getting a false reading. Also this gave a better visualization of the whole process though there is one point which I need to clarify with reference to the boost compensator operation particularly the metering rod inside it (shown in my photograph below, sorry for poor pic):

    The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga - 139950

    My impression and understanding is that the boost compensator and the pin at its stock settings would be designed to work at 8-12psi of boost. At boost beyond a certain pressure (lets say 12psi) the metering rod (seen above) would be pushed down beyond the point where the accelerator pin was in the scooped area. This would cut back the extra fuel that the boost compensator was supplying while the pin was in the scoop. Hence, I would imagine that at 18psi with the rod forced way way down the boost compensator would definitely have cut back the extra fuel that it was supplying in the 8-12psi region.

    If the above is correct then we would also have a decent explanation for better acceleration at 10psi not to mention the power drop seen on the curve beyond a certain RPM as the turbo comes up to full spool.
    It could be that at 10 psi you're getting nice cool air without any back pressure while at 18, you're not getting any more fuel into the engine all the while choking the engine with back pressure.

    That said, have you tried to turn the pin in its mounting place? As you can see, the cut is off center. You can turn it to bring the deeper cut towards the lever that meters fuel. I've read of this in an article on Autospeed among other places. Also, I've read of a modified pin where the cut is very off-axis in that one side of the rod is uncut, while there's a a very deep cut on the other side of the pin. As it always happens I can't find an image link to it.

    Check these articles if you haven't already:

    Autospeed search results - our Peugeot diesel

    Check the Our Peugeot diesel series of 5 articles. They might give you a few ideas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo View Post
    You've missed temperature. Hotter gasses have greater energy to impart to the turbine and hence more boost. In petrol engines, you can play around with air/fuel ratio and ignition timing to affect a change in EGT, while in diesel engines you can do more or less the same with injection duration and timing.

    Assuming that your wastegate opening and engine speed (volumetric flow rate) are the same, changing injection parameters will impart more or less energy to the turbine causing it to spin faster (increasing mass flow rate of air by increasing pressure ratio) or slower (decreasing mass flow rate of air by decreasing pressure ratio).
    You are absolutely correct.

    That's why when I said "...for a given exhaust flow and van(e) geometry..." I thought I was covering those changes as a simplification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VCheng View Post
    You are absolutely correct.

    That's why when I said "...for a given exhaust flow and van(e) geometry..." I thought I was covering those changes as a simplification.
    Gotcha!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo View Post
    ......have you tried to turn the pin in its mounting place? As you can see, the cut is off center. You can turn it to bring the deeper cut towards the lever that meters fuel. I've read of this in an article on Autospeed among other places. Also, I've read of a modified pin where the cut is very off-axis in that one side of the rod is uncut, while there's a a very deep cut on the other side of the pin. As it always happens I can't find an image link to it.

    Check these articles if you haven't already:Autospeed search results - our Peugeot diesel

    Check the Our Peugeot diesel series of 5 articles. They might give you a few ideas.
    Yes, we turned the pin around after the dyno test during which it was on the narrow cut/scoop side. We turned it towards the deeper longer scoop and it made a visible difference to the pickup particularly in the 2500-3000 rpm range.

    Despite that I am quite certain that the current pin is not designed to handle 18psi (as per my theory above) and to supply more fuel at this boost level one would need one of them custom cut pins (like the Europeans, see pic below).
    The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga -140098

    Will go through the articles.... Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo View Post
    It could be that at 10 psi you're getting nice cool air without any back pressure while at 18, you're not getting any more fuel into the engine all the while choking the engine with back pressure.
    It could well be, but the symptom that I read somewhere of excessive back pressure (which I am assuming is the same thing as a restrictive/small exhaust) were that typically as the turbo reaches full spool and as the RPMs rise and you get more air flowing through the exhaust, the boost pressure experiences a dip. I have not come across any dip in boost at any stage, though personally I would have thought that a slightly bigger exhaust would have be beneficial in any case. I think I have a full desi 2 inch exhaust system with a few nasty bends in there.....

    Another point worth mentioning here is that when we took out the metering rod, from what I recall you could see the pin mark going off the dip/scoop, and up into the boost cut zone....
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    It could well be, but the symptom that I read somewhere of excessive back pressure (which I am assuming is the same thing as a restrictive/small exhaust) were that typically as the turbo reaches full spool and as the RPMs rise and you get more air flowing through the exhaust, the boost pressure experiences a dip. I have not come across any dip in boost at any stage, though personally I would have thought that a slightly bigger exhaust would have be beneficial in any case. I think I have a full desi 2 inch exhaust system with a few nasty bends in there.....

    Another point worth mentioning here is that when we took out the metering rod, from what I recall you could see the pin mark going off the dip/scoop, and up into the boost cut zone....
    I've done quite a bit of playing around with VGT-based turbochargers. You change the boost pressure by narrowing the inlet guide vanes on the turbine. As your boost rises, so does the mass air flow through the engine. After a certain limit, the boost pressure and turbo RPM keeps on rising but the air flow rate either stays constant or starts to drop. All the while having the same inlet air temperature (post-turbo) and engine speed. So what happens is that the turbocharger turbine back pressure reduces the volumetric efficiency of the engine.

    We usually forget that it's the air flow in kg/second that makes power. Not boost pressure. More air means more fuel can be burnt, hence more power.

    About your fueling-enrichment rod, I find it intriguing. It would probably be beneficial to note what is the maximum stroke of the metering mechanism, then making a fuel-enrichment rod to suit, to take advantage of the whole stroke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo View Post
    We usually forget that it's the air flow in kg/second that makes power. Not boost pressure. More air means more fuel can be burnt, hence more power.
    Absolutely true.

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    Default CT20 Strikes Back!!!

    The 2LT Diesel Dyno Panga - filephp?id4988
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    what are you upto?

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