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Thread: Pakistan 4x4 Rally Thread - Discussion

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    great videos sk, lots of learning ...
    More Power!!! More power....

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    deficiencies of the frame and other things etc make the FJ40 an impossible platform to improve handling
    Thats the whole point,,, glad you admitted it.

    Its not the question whether the glass is half full or half empty. Hal full or half empty is just the perception of the fact that FJ is half of what you could have.

    Gurbat nay kuch nahin bigara,,, aap FJ key ishq main mubtala ho gaye hain.

    Your whole line of arguments remind me of a joke about which race is the most potent of all the races of the world, cant write it here, Will tell when we meet next time

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    Head start of 20 seconds and Evo caught up in under 3 minutes. This is neither the difference of driving nor of engine power, FJ is impossible to handle. 10 years ago your FJ would not have been too out of date,,, in 2012, it is

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    Quote Originally Posted by saidhi View Post
    Head start of 20 seconds and Evo caught up in under 3 minutes. This is neither the difference of driving nor of engine power, FJ is impossible to handle. 10 years ago your FJ would not have been too out of date,,, in 2012, it is
    i noticed that too... takes me back to the discussion i had with you suhaib, i'd give the steering a shot just to see what difference it makes... havent researched FJs at all but i would assume there would be aftermarket boxes/ systems available out there that could work.. better still why not steal the khakwani fj idea... come to think of it one should borrow that FJ and give it a run on the dunes and see if its worth it at all....with all the blood sweat and tears gone into the concordia i wouldnt hang the boots just yet
    More Power!!! More power....

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    Challo, koi bola to sahee....
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Default Quetta 4x4 club

    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    Sounds about right! Good Job
    The front does seem to be Total Chaos long travel + Fox + Coilovers. At the rear, I believe, the custom rear Deaver leaf springs do away with the loading type charcteristics of stock leafs and SUA helps increase uptravel. Rear tension shackle setup (ones that stand upright as opposed to hang down in normal position) help the back squat down low on acceleration (like a German Shepherd ). All in all, from what little I know, its a very nicely setup car and as such does not seem to be obnoxiously pricey either.
    very impresive janab i like it...

    syed ali ahmed shah
    QUETTA 4x4 club

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    Default Exhibit E: Concordia Potential Powerplants

    Ultimate 4x4 Rally Threadrally database  rally discussion -456172

    @ruftoy1131 : Thanks for the kind words!

    @YaserAG: I think I have figured the main problem here. Apart from the stubbornness, its my blatant disregard for all rules, norms, schedules, aadab and lawazmat of the game. Won't work well for long ... so yes I think its not time to hang the boots as yet but advisable to shift categories.... still may not get to the podium or do any better with the timeclock, but probably be less irritating customer overall..... Just a thought .....but interesting exhibit no? Maybe its time for @nn to say something

    @Qasim Bhai: Mujhe triple bypass lend karr dein aur meray Ranchos aap laga lein, 20 second cover karnaa meraa kaam.... as the wise man says : "woh shagird hee kya do Ustaad se aagey na barh sakey"
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    @Suhaib

    You are absolutely not irritable,,, for me,,, you are the most lovable and respected rally partner.

    Reason why I suggest that you should consider improving your rally horse is the fact that I am 100% convinced that you can drive better than most so called rally icons and its the FJ's handling that holds you back. Trippe bypass on FJ will hardly make a difference but if you drive a stock Suzuki Jimny, I wont be able to catch you like this, may be on straights but certainly not in above like winding 2nd or 3rd gear sections.

    You invest more time on your 4x4 than any other rally driver, take out atleast a day more than others to participate, have your own team of excellent mechanics, have your own recovery/service 4x4, spend the same amount of money for participating in a rally than why settle for only finishing when you could easily win with a better horse.

    If finances are not the issue, buy a 90-97 model 3 door Nissan Patrol, I recently bought a stock 91 Nissan for 500K. Change the engine, get decent shocks with reservoirs, no need for triple bypass, and whip most asses out there.

    If finances are an issue, either sell FJ or CJ, keep the other for obstacles, trips up north with IJC and it will serve as your service vehicle too.

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    Interesting.............................glad Qasim is back giving opinions and not just prayers.

    Qasim's point regarding time / effort / input by Suhaib on his Machine is spot on. So unless Concordia can put a more competitive time over a whole course of a race (and I am not even saying podiums) for rallying consider changing horse (doctor's / lawyer's orders!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    Ultimate 4x4 Rally Threadrally database  rally discussion -456172

    @ruftoy1131 : Thanks for the kind words!

    @YaserAG: I think I have figured the main problem here. Apart from the stubbornness, its my blatant disregard for all rules, norms, schedules, aadab and lawazmat of the game. Won't work well for long ... so yes I think its not time to hang the boots as yet but advisable to shift categories.... still may not get to the podium or do any better with the timeclock, but probably be less irritating customer overall..... Just a thought .....but interesting exhibit no? Maybe its time for @nn to say something

    @Qasim Bhai: Mujhe triple bypass lend karr dein aur meray Ranchos aap laga lein, 20 second cover karnaa meraa kaam.... as the wise man says : "woh shagird hee kya do Ustaad se aagey na barh sakey"

    Suhaib, i would say get to within 10-20 mins of the top times before changing categories. Two things that come to mind straight away when i look at the FJ videos are steering and suspension travel (wheelbase too)... personally (at the risk of inviting a barrage from qasim ) i do agree that in-spite of the the FJ platforms short comings it can still be made competitive... i was sitting in Dubai at this shop that rally preps vehicles for the 1000 dunes and the like and guess what was the preferred platform in their view for these type of races... it was the mark iii and iv IFS hilux platform. they were using these with long travel kits (total chaos, Icon etc) and VVTI 1UZ powerplants.... these vehicles were FIA spec...the works. Why were they preferred...two words strength and simplicity... the frames are totally boxed and can take a serious pounding vs the C channel chassis on Tacos, Tundras etc... mind you they weren't tinkering on old luxes like i wanted...rather they were getting new frames built straight out of japan... anyway point being the components of these 20 year old rigs are over designed even in stock guise i.e. they can take a beating... 20 ft jumps in the air... no problem... do that with a vigo and i bet you the steering linkages will be the first to fail... anyway long story short... i learnt that the old lux platform that i was after is actually a great platform... and i learnt that from somebody who has been racing and building these things for more than 20 years now... so why didn't i go down that route ...long story... another time maybe ... decided to take the easy (read much more expensive and less satisfying) route..

    anyway, nothing is more satisfying for me personally than watching the underdog kick ***... or at least giving the thoroughbreds a scare and a bloody nose... and this dog (pun intended ) that you have...with a little bit of tinkering can sure as hell give a bloody nose to a few out there keep at it brother... next time i come over to pindi we chat 80 series and prado fronts under that FJ of yours
    More Power!!! More power....

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    waise, serious afterthought... a SWB Y60 patrol with a 1JZ and decent shockers would be a great C category horse... agree with qasim over there... and better still he's sitting on a couple you could ask for one... btw qasim yeh teesri evo kahan se aii?
    More Power!!! More power....

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    Default Exhibit F : Handling...

    ...don't see anything particularly wrong with it apart from teething probs!

    The suspension setup was more inclined towards a Jhal Magsi type terrain, based on only prior experience. Suspension for Cholistan needs to be softer, and hard double shock setup seems to be limiting travel to 4-6 inches. Triple bypass / reservoir single shocks would make a difference, and along with lighter leaf spring packs should hopefully increase effective travel to desired 8-10 inches range. Still less than 10-12 inches on Evos and Nissan's but the FJ Concordia can probably bash(eer) its way out here....

    The handling requirements in Cholistan are different from Jhal Magsi. The sand tends to favour traditional type leaf springs much more than the Jhal Magsi powder dirt......


    Anyways, Evo blows turn at 1:50, Concordia doesn't.... OK going slower, but hey....
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Default More Handling...

    Ronnie Patel Evo takes estimated 12 secs turn to finish (starting 0:27) , Concordia takes 13... slower but hey, give it a break!
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Default Exhibit G : The Freaking Frame....

    Firstly many thanks to @saidhi, @nn and @YaserAG for keeping the discussion lively and going. I will get back to some of the points but lets get the SK rant over and out with first

    Pakistan 4x4 Rally Thread -  Discussion - 4195004675 81b6c4e29d o

    On the frame, I have heard it blamed for everything that can possibly be wrong with the car. I've heard that its too stiff (with no flex) and it does not help in keeping all four wheels on the ground. I've heard that its the completely wrong chassis for rallying....period, no discussions, no explainations required. I've heard that it lacks the "modern" developments and jazz incorporated into frames by developers. I've heard that the metallurgy is not up to date etc etc. There is the obvious reference to the wheelbase being too short, though that is less of an issue. Not being an engineer by any means, over time I looked through all the arguments and with my un-biasedness, the conclusions of my research to date have not favoured any of the above arguments.

    @YaserAG's post about the dubai rally raid car makers is a breath of fresh air for me.... Safe to say that to the best of my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong), in most forms of auto racing, a stiff frame is a good frame! Once you put a 6 point roll cage on any frame it becomes even stiffer! A stiffer frame apart from theoretically being able to take more abuse, presents a more stable platform to the suspension to be set up and do its work consistenly. I recently got a chance to look at a Vigo frame, which was a complete monstrosity in terms of bulk and size!

    Once you get over the stiffness issue, you are left with the two obvious shortcomings wheel base and wheel travel. Both of these require a bit of surgery to fix up but there is tremendous flexibility not just in terms to how you want to do it but also how much! Another thing that can be done generally is move the FJ40 spings slightly outwards to improve lateral stability, which would be a must for wider axles. All of it takes up a bit of effort but not that much cash out here, considering what the imported alternatives of such jazz work will end up costing you particulrly with cheap availability of FJ40 body/frame parts. Nevertheless, the point is that once you let go of the stock set-up and embrace that your going against the wind in a buggy sort of scenario, the FJ40 offers you tremendous flexibility and potential upside that you can affordably incorporate on your race vehicle.

    On top of everything, there is also the problem of the frame handling the power you subject it to. I can't think of many stock platforms which would handle 260 rally HPs and 260 sand lbs/ft without blinking and rather ask for more.... All said, its also by far the cheapest alternative with host of good condition army auctions available.

    Early FJ40 frame photo above by ourvice at flickr.com

    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    Firstly many thanks to @saidhi, @nn and @YaserAG for keeping the discussion lively and going. I will get back to some of the points but lets get the SK rant over and out with first

    Pakistan 4x4 Rally Thread -  Discussion - 4195004675 81b6c4e29d o

    On the frame, I have heard it blamed for everything that can possibly be wrong with the car. I've heard that its too stiff (with no flex) and it does not help in keeping all four wheels on the ground. I've heard that its the completely wrong chassis for rallying....period, no discussions, no explainations required. I've heard that it lacks the "modern" developments and jazz incorporated into frames by developers. I've heard that the metallurgy is not up to date etc etc. There is the obvious reference to the wheelbase being too short, though that is less of an issue. Not being an engineer by any means, over time I looked through all the arguments and with my un-biasedness, the conclusions of my research to date have not favoured any of the above arguments.

    @YaserAG's post about the dubai rally raid car makers is a breath of fresh air for me.... Safe to say that to the best of my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong), in most forms of auto racing, a stiff frame is a good frame! Once you put a 6 point roll cage on any frame it becomes even stiffer! A stiffer frame apart from theoretically being able to take more abuse, presents a more stable platform to the suspension to be set up and do its work consistenly. I recently got a chance to look at a Vigo frame, which was a complete monstrosity in terms of bulk and size!

    Once you get over the stiffness issue, you are left with the two obvious shortcomings wheel base and wheel travel. Both of these require a bit of surgery to fix up but there is tremendous flexibility not just in terms to how you want to do it but also how much! Another thing that can be done generally is move the FJ40 spings slightly outwards to improve lateral stability, which would be a must for wider axles. All of it takes up a bit of effort but not that much cash out here, considering what the imported alternatives of such jazz work will end up costing you particulrly with cheap availability of FJ40 body/frame parts. Nevertheless, the point is that once you let go of the stock set-up and embrace that your going against the wind in a buggy sort of scenario, the FJ40 offers you tremendous flexibility and potential upside that you can affordably incorporate on your race vehicle.

    On top of everything, there is also the problem of the frame handling the power you subject it to. I can't think of many stock platforms which would handle 260 rally HPs and 260 sand lbs/ft without blinking and rather ask for more.... All said, its also by far the cheapest alternative with host of good condition army auctions available.

    Early FJ40 frame photo above by ourvice at flickr.com

    spot on about the "chassis flex" point, flex is BAD... period. Having some (limited) chassis engineering knowledge, simulating suspension performance under flex is a problem as suspension behaviour is unpredictable...so ALL race car designers ensure frames are as rigid as possible...

    did you know that the hilux chassis has barely changed over the last two decades.... the vigo ladder chassis is essentially the same thing with improvements in suspension and steering only....agree with you on your point on the wheelbase... its not the limiting factor.. your Achilles heal is the steering... trust me... two many links moving back and forth... and that 3.5 turns box ufff... watching those videos reminds of those arcade games where there is so much lag between the steering turning and the wheels turning that youre always doing steering connections.... lets work on that mate! inch by inch... brick by brick

    on another note... any tips on bolt on internal roll cages?
    More Power!!! More power....

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    News is that the Mithi Rally is to be held in the 1st or the 2nd week of November i.e. either 4th November or 11th November, 2012.

    Time to finalize preparations for the upcoming season

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    Quote Originally Posted by saidhi View Post
    News is that the Mithi Rally is to be held in the 1st or the 2nd week of November i.e. either 4th November or 11th November, 2012.

    Time to finalize preparations for the upcoming season
    waqt kam hai aur muqabla sakht!!
    More Power!!! More power....

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    ...aur jaib bilkul khaali
    More Power!!! More power....

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    Default Short Takes : On the Nissan Y60....

    In my wholesome 4x4 experience, in stock form there is no better offroad machine I have come across than the Nissan patrol Y60 (or whatever its called). Whether it be offroading or rallying, the Nissan Patrol holds its own against therobustness of the TLCs and the performance flexibility of the Jeeps and Mistubishis. Nevertheless, as symbolic as it maybe, the Y60 is the national car of the UAE/Qatar/KSA as they claimed it much earlier and owned it much better than we ever did or will. Winning on a Y60 will be at (and we can agree to disagree here, with no specicfic offence or pun intended here) as pashto saying goes "farting on someone else's sheet"! . For us our national 4x4 is either the K1 "waterproof" CJ Jeep or the freakin' FJ40! And while Mr. Nasser Al Attiyah skeet shoots his way to an olympic medal adding to his Dakar sporting credentials, small victories matter a lot to us, as symbolic as they may perceived to be, as long as our flag flies high:

    Ultimate 4x4 Rally Threadrally database  rally discussion -457212
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Default





    Over and Out on FJ for Good

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