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Thread: A Somewhat Strange Rebuild

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    Default A Somewhat Strange Rebuild

    Off roading has come a long way in Pakistan. And I mean in all possible forms of the sport. We have dedicated rally-going vehicles. Dedicated hardcore vehicles. Poseur vehicles, that never really leave the road at all, unless it's to pull into a billion rupee farmhouse! We have Toyotas, Jeeps, Pajeros, Nissans, Unimogs, MUTTs, Ivecos, Pinzgauers,GMCs...in short; almost every imaginable ORV (off road vehicle) under the sun. Some intrepid builders are even building a fiberglass Hummer somewhere here!

    Most of these vehicle, however, are "general use" vehicles, that dually act as daily drivers / weekend warriors, when the need arises. What we haven't seen, thus far, is a stripped-to-the-bones, high-performance trail rig emerge from the bowels of City Saddar Road. Something which, quite frankly, I find quite amazing.

    Conceptually speaking, this shouldn't be a very difficult thing. After having learned much on the subject from rebuilding the Phantom (an FJ40; with a 1HZ engine, H150F transmission, Series 60 axle tubes, a 7:37 diff gear ratio, 42 inch tyres, and four doors), I've come to the conclusion that such a vehicle should NOT be a very difficult thing to build, at all. It should be an out-and-out off roader, with little/no creature comforts (we already have Willys and MUTTs and Unimogs, which are quite unadorned, that way)...it should boast incredible performance (engine, transmission, 4WD, differential locks, power steering, recovery systems)...should be capable of donning different wheels for its employment, in different avatars (tall/skinny for rallying/endurance/speed and thick/broad for traction and grip during hardcore wheeling).

    Does such a vehicle require a body? I think not. Why shouldn't it have nothing but a tubular exo-skeleton / roll-cage built around the frame? Why should it need mudguards? Do we really have a requirement for any fancy electronics, other than those necessary for the engine management, lights, and winch etc? Must it be built around an expensive frame? Or could a simple, cheap, basic frame such as that of an M38 suffice? I've asked myself these questions, many a time, and for such a purpose-built rig, the answer has been pretty obvious, each time.

    This thread, deals with the conceptual parameters of building such a radical ride. I'm going to jot down a few details that I have in mind...and I would love for the more knowledgeable amongst us, to step forward and add their opinion, advice, and criticism to the pot. I would also really appreciate it, if someone could also provide some feedback / input on the possible prices of the items I'm mentioning below. Some time, some day...one amongst us, will make this pipe-dream appear as reality, Insha Allah!

    Frame
    M38 frame and voucher (the cheapest that is available in the market)

    Engine / Transmission Choices
    1UZ-FE VVTi (300 bhp), mated to an H150F 5 speed manual transmission.
    1FZ-FE Black Top (224 bhp), mated to an H150 5 speed manual transmission, or a 4 speed auto tranny.
    2UZ-FE VVTi (271 bhp), mated to a 4/5 speed auto transmission.


    Axles
    Toyota Series 60 Axle Tubes, running 9:37 or 10:41 diff gear ratios, with electronic diff locks.
    Nissan Patrol Axle Tubes, running 9:37 or 10:41 diff gear ratios, with electronic diff locks.

    Tyres
    1 set each, of tall/skinny and fat/grippy tyres, in 33 inch and 38 inch avatars, respectively.

    Steering
    Power assisted, with a kanghi-type steering box.

    Winch
    Warn
    Toyota OEM

    Body Styling (& Miscellaneous)
    None. It simply uses an arrangement of pipes bolted onto the frame as an exo-skeleton, which doubles as a roll-over cage as well. No mudguards, no wheel-wells, no body panels...in short; NOTHING which can encumber / hinder the mechanicals of the vehicle. Coilover springs (long travel). 4 wheel disc brakes. On board air, via a compressor. Steering stabilizers. Racing seats (with four point harnesses). A GPS. PERHAPS, a fold-down windscreen. PERHAPS a bikini top made out of vinyl / leatherite for wet weather.

    In my mind's eye, I already have a fair idea of what this ride SHOULD look like. When I find a photo on the internet that comes close to what I believe it should be...I'll be sure to post it. In the meanwhile, if anyone would like to indulge their creativity / technical expertise with adding to this thread...please feel welcome.

    Best regards.

    Fouad.

    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Fouad Bhai i think you are planning to go for another master piece.* best wishes for the end product*
    Old is Gold
    Sulfide by Nature ....Trained & Tuned @ Toyota,,,,,,

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    Quote Originally Posted by joinami View Post
    Fouad Bhai i think you are planning to go for another master piece.* best wishes for the end product*
    Thanks for the good wishes, brother...but it isn't really a definite plan, just yet. It's more a case of wishful thinking / composing some thoughts out aloud, for now.
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    But one point i like to add that here in Pakistan we lack certain types of rebuild facilities as we have to depend on 2nd hand junk yard parts(which had already used thier most part of *functioning life), for modification we have to depend on our hand crafted labour. where as in other parts of the world they have rebuild clubs/arb accessories and lot more to take advantage of. so i must say if some one in toughest scenario like ours ends up with some thing great is really remarkable.
    Old is Gold
    Sulfide by Nature ....Trained & Tuned @ Toyota,,,,,,

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    A Somewhat Strange Rebuild -1048237
    RIP

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    Quote Originally Posted by joinami View Post
    But one point i like to add that here in Pakistan we lack certain types of rebuild facilities as we have to depend on 2nd hand junk yard parts(which had already used thier most part of *functioning life), for modification we have to depend on our hand crafted labour. where as in other parts of the world they have rebuild clubs/arb accessories and lot more to take advantage of. so i must say if some one in toughest scenario like ours ends up with some thing great is really remarkable.
    I agree completely. But the thing is, brother, one has to make do with what one HAS readily available. A dream vehicle would probably have all sorts of goodies on it; taken brand new from the most prestigious factories of the world. Such items, would probably cost an arm and a leg. The ones I've mentioned, though, are those that are pretty much readily available to us, here. At costs that are high...but not astronomical. Aur phir...agar koi ajooba bana bhi lein, from different parts...aur jab kharab ho jaaye...tau kahaan se cheap replacements aayengi?
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertypoiu View Post
    A Somewhat Strange Rebuild -1048237
    I LOVE it!
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Another picture...just to whet everyone's appetite...
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    And some more eye-candy...

    The VEHICLE...NOT the driver!
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    I'd start with a v8 petrol engine..running at 400 bhp..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teeboyuk View Post
    I'd start with a v8 petrol engine..running at 400 bhp..
    Amongst the "readily available" engines that I'd mentioned above...two of them are V8s. However, in order to crank up the power beyond stock limits, it'd require extensive tuning/chipping/tinkering with. This is something that I'm completely unfamiliar with...and to be honest, am really quite at a loss for as to why should one spend an extra amount of money on (other than bragging rights, perhaps).

    I'm using the stock 1UZ in a street car, and it is a phenomenal engine. On the other hand, I'm using the stock 1FZ in an ORV, and for its application, it is an equally wonderful engine. Even stock big block American V8s tend to taper off at 300 odd plus bhp. Not to ditch your idea, brother...but aspiring for the magical "400" figure, would be overkill at the outset. As the build progresses / evolves, though...who knows?

    Thanks for the input!
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Was just doing some mental maths.

    A build of this sort should come in at around PKR 1.2 Mn, or less. Ballpark figures for the various essentials are as under, although I've intentionally kept figures on the somewhat higher side (I think!), so as to remain closer to reality. Costs have a weird way of spiralling, when you start to spend money!

    Donor vehicle: PKR 40K
    Engine/Transmission: PKR 400K
    Axles/Tubes/Diffs: PKR 100K
    Coilover Shocks: PKR 100K
    Wheels/Tyres: PKR 250K
    Seats: PKR 25K
    Winch: PKR 25K
    Tubing/Body Work: PKR 150K
    Miscellaneous: PKR 100K

    Notes:
    2 x sets of Wheels and Tyres (33s and 37s).
    Based on an assumption for a 1UZ bolted to an H150F.
    Nissan Patrol Tubes, incorporating electronic diff locks.
    Sparco seats.
    Miscellaneous includes various mazdoori, lights, fitting charges, upholstery, etc.

    Confirmation, soon!
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fouadhafeez View Post
    Was just doing some mental maths.

    A build of this sort should come in at around PKR 1.2 Mn, or less. Ballpark figures for the various essentials are as under, although I've intentionally kept figures on the somewhat higher side (I think!), so as to remain closer to reality. Costs have a weird way of spiralling, when you start to spend money!

    Donor vehicle: PKR 40K
    Engine/Transmission: PKR 400K
    Axles/Tubes/Diffs: PKR 100K
    Coilover Shocks: PKR 100K
    Wheels/Tyres: PKR 250K
    Seats: PKR 25K
    Winch: PKR 25K
    Tubing/Body Work: PKR 150K
    Miscellaneous: PKR 100K

    Notes:
    2 x sets of Wheels and Tyres (33s and 37s).
    Based on an assumption for a 1UZ bolted to an H150F.
    Nissan Patrol Tubes, incorporating electronic diff locks.
    Sparco seats.
    Miscellaneous includes various mazdoori, lights, fitting charges, upholstery, etc.

    Confirmation, soon!
    fouad bhai, congratulations on being bit by the "build" bug... unfortunately once youre bit youre hooked... its an addiction .

    i would not let the scarcity of "off the shelf" options as is the case abroad deter one from pursuing interests like these... city saddar, shoba et all are all potential goldmines for a project like this (but you already know that)... i would add 4link suspension both front and back to the list to add some serious articulation (should not be difficult to fabricate) and it'll give the rig some serious offroad capability. the rigs youve posted all have 4links.

    wholeheartedly agree with you on not needing to chip/tune/force induce a a stock engine... just go with the torque-iest option out there and youre good... the 1uz mated to the H150F should be fine...

    looking forward to the build... and would love to be a part of it (only problem, im based out of lahore)
    More Power!!! More power....

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    I respect the motivation and the drive behind this discussion. The rigs pictured up here are essentially designed and used for rock crawling. Typically they also employ either low ratio diffs, transfer case doublers or custom Atlas transfer cases with 4:1 gearing to achieve a very low crawl ratio which is esssential in the big rocks.

    However, maybe the reason probably we don't see this type pf rigs around here is that without an environment and culture where the capabilities of such a rig can be fully deployed, it makes little sense to go for one. A locked CJ or FJ with 31s is more than good enough for all the general offroad requirements we use them for, and one can at least still strategically invite one's better half to drive down to the supermarket in it (obviously, you'd end up going with the kids in the end but... )

    All said and done, I have given thought to getting off my rear end one of these days and putting the junk we have lying around the house to put together a rig which I can tow to places like Mahodand / Kharh Kharri / Deosai then rock on beyond. Believe it or not, this was the list of items we have piled up: M38 Frame, H55 gear and transfer case, some Unimog portal axles (lockers!!), FJ60 9:37 axle set, spare 1UZ FE, a few CT20 turbo chargers!

    Fouad Bhai, you are more than welcome to borrow any/all of the above for your project! If it works, sab mera, if it doesn't, sab aapka
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    I respect the motivation and the drive behind this discussion. The rigs pictured up here are essentially designed and used for rock crawling. Typically they also employ either low ratio diffs, transfer case doublers or custom Atlas transfer cases with 4:1 gearing to achieve a very low crawl ratio which is esssential in the big rocks.

    However, maybe the reason probably we don't see this type pf rigs around here is that without an environment and culture where the capabilities of such a rig can be fully deployed, it makes little sense to go for one. A locked CJ or FJ with 31s is more than good enough for all the general offroad requirements we use them for, and one can at least still strategically invite one's better half to drive down to the supermarket in it (obviously, you'd end up going with the kids in the end but... )

    All said and done, I have given thought to getting off my rear end one of these days and putting the junk we have lying around the house to put together a rig which I can tow to places like Mahodand / Kharh Kharri / Deosai then rock on beyond. Believe it or not, this was the list of items we have piled up: M38 Frame, H55 gear and transfer case, some Unimog portal axles (lockers!!), FJ60 9:37 axle set, spare 1UZ FE, a few CT20 turbo chargers!

    Fouad Bhai, you are more than welcome to borrow any/all of the above for your project! If it works, sab mera, if it doesn't, sab aapka
    Pehlay Uzi ko to theek karo! want to see that thing scare the pants of some of the rally regulars
    More Power!!! More power....

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    Hey...I mentioned the American v8. Because of its low rmp..durability and low cost..and no need for lots of electronic ..easy diagnostics...start with a standard engine add power as and when you need..also they can take on hell off a beating...lol..I'd only advise this if you we're planing on towing it with a a frame....to play...

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    Default What can be done...

    HI GUYS JUST WANTED TO SHOW YOU THIS.... Automatic, All Terrain, Petrol, 3,000 miles, White, 1 Owner.Bespoke Winch Challenge Defender LS1 5.3l V8370 BHP575 Nm TorqueWaterproof engine loomReverse Throttle bodyHooker LS1 manifoldsLarge oil cooler.HD TH 350 with two oilcoolers and extralarge oilpan.Spidertrax/D&G Special 3 Speed: High, Low and CrawlerSelectable front, rear or 4wheel drive. Spidertrax Spider 9 axles with Ultimate 60 knuckles and CTM Dana 60 UJ's35 spline halfshafts in 300M SteelHi9 Diffs with ARB locker front incl ASHCROFT uprated package for Hi9 ARB and Detroit locker rear1350 propshafts with High flex U jointsFront and rear propshafts have the same length.Wilwood forged Dynalite calipers with Type E polymatrix padsDual Brake master cylinders. 4link front and rear, trailing arms F+R have same length!Trailing arms out of chromoly steelFox 2 inch coil overs with 14" travelFox hydraulic bump stopsD&G Tuning Sway bar with 15" aloy arms 32" long.38,5 Super Swamper Boggers with Steel modular beadlock rims.D&G 4x4 Tuning Taurus Chassis.. ?45,000
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaserag View Post
    fouad bhai, congratulations on being bit by the "build" bug... unfortunately once youre bit youre hooked... its an addiction .
    Believe me, Yaser...I know where you're coming from. Unfortunately, this is an addiction I've had for the last two dozen years. I was 19 when I started off doing nasty things to a 1979 Toyota Corolla I once owned (my first car)...and now, I'm an old man; still bitten by the bug!

    i would not let the scarcity of "off the shelf" options as is the case abroad deter one from pursuing interests like these... city saddar, shoba et all are all potential goldmines for a project like this (but you already know that)... i would add 4link suspension both front and back to the list to add some serious articulation (should not be difficult to fabricate) and it'll give the rig some serious offroad capability. the rigs youve posted all have 4links.
    Yes, of course you're right. All of those pictures are of multi-link suspension vehicles. But they're ALSO pictures of rigs with a tube chassis rather than our conventional "girder" chassis. That too, greatly enhances their articulation ability. Something which, for obvious reasons of our chassis having to remain "virginal" for registration purposes, won't be seen any time soon in Pakistan. About the four-link suspension, I'd really love to pick up something genuinely made...since I'm somewhat skeptical about the efficiency of local fabrication for parts which require excruciating finesse and precision.

    wholeheartedly agree with you on not needing to chip/tune/force induce a a stock engine... just go with the torque-iest option out there and youre good... the 1uz mated to the H150F should be fine...
    I've driven the 1UZ (the FE, VVTi version) and it's a terrifyingly quick engine. On a '65 Impala, it propels the beast (which EASILY weighs more than four M38 frames combined) at a frighteningly fast pace. I can only wonder what it'll do to a stripped "naked" rig!

    looking forward to the build... and would love to be a part of it (only problem, im based out of lahore)
    Well...you're already a part of the build, Yaser. Your good wishes, your sound advice, and encouragement (along with that of others) are a very important part of any venture like this. And besides...for now, like I said, this is purely "mental calibration" for the eventual build. The actual "getting down and dirty" with it, is still some way away. Thanks for your advice and good wishes!
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    I respect the motivation and the drive behind this discussion. The rigs pictured up here are essentially designed and used for rock crawling. Typically they also employ either low ratio diffs, transfer case doublers or custom Atlas transfer cases with 4:1 gearing to achieve a very low crawl ratio which is esssential in the big rocks.
    True, Suhaib...although my point is that you build the vehicle to suit yourself and your intended use, and not vice versa. A stripped rig, which performs like a banshee in true off-road conditions...and which yet has phenomenal high end speed for straights and slow curves (i.e., rally-like conditions), would be anathema to low gear ratios, custom transfer cases, and the like. Personally, I'd like such a vehicle to be a sort of "best of both worlds" machine. Something that would be equally at home in the type of off roading we do, or on straight bumpy flat stretches. I view your OWN FJ40 as one such inspirational machine, to be honest.

    However, maybe the reason probably we don't see this type pf rigs around here is that without an environment and culture where the capabilities of such a rig can be fully deployed, it makes little sense to go for one. A locked CJ or FJ with 31s is more than good enough for all the general offroad requirements we use them for, and one can at least still strategically invite one's better half to drive down to the supermarket in it (obviously, you'd end up going with the kids in the end but... )
    Again, you're right. We don't really HAVE any serious rock-crawling wheeling sessions, nor would I (personally) be taking it out on a King of Hammers run in all probability. Hence my stress upon there not BEING a need for too much high-tech equipment, or costly outsourcing. And by the way, when you get to the stage where you've been married for as long as I have, the better half insists on never being caught within 300 meters of your rig...regardless!

    All said and done, I have given thought to getting off my rear end one of these days and putting the junk we have lying around the house to put together a rig which I can tow to places like Mahodand / Kharh Kharri / Deosai then rock on beyond. Believe it or not, this was the list of items we have piled up: M38 Frame, H55 gear and transfer case, some Unimog portal axles (lockers!!), FJ60 9:37 axle set, spare 1UZ FE, a few CT20 turbo chargers!

    Fouad Bhai, you are more than welcome to borrow any/all of the above for your project! If it works, sab mera, if it doesn't, sab aapka
    It's scary to see how similar to one another is the basic wish-list that the both of us have compiled, separately! The portal axles sound absolutely delicious. As does the choice of engine, transmission, axles, and bolt-on kits. The choices of a true enthusiast! If and when I DO initiate this build, I'll be sure to contact you for any/all of them, brother. You're incredibly decent for making the offer. Thank you, for that.
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teeboyuk View Post
    Hey...I mentioned the American v8. Because of its low rmp..durability and low cost..and no need for lots of electronic ..easy diagnostics...start with a standard engine add power as and when you need..also they can take on hell off a beating...lol..I'd only advise this if you we're planing on towing it with a a frame....to play...
    To be honest, I HAVE a big block V8 American engine (a Buick 455, 7.4L that should produce about 350+ bhp), with a TH350 transmission (the transmission of the rig you've posted below). And while it may have a great deal of grunt...wouldn't you much rather prefer it went into a street car, than an ORV? I would!
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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