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Thread: A Somewhat Strange Rebuild

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    Default A Somewhat Strange Rebuild

    Off roading has come a long way in Pakistan. And I mean in all possible forms of the sport. We have dedicated rally-going vehicles. Dedicated hardcore vehicles. Poseur vehicles, that never really leave the road at all, unless it's to pull into a billion rupee farmhouse! We have Toyotas, Jeeps, Pajeros, Nissans, Unimogs, MUTTs, Ivecos, Pinzgauers,GMCs...in short; almost every imaginable ORV (off road vehicle) under the sun. Some intrepid builders are even building a fiberglass Hummer somewhere here!

    Most of these vehicle, however, are "general use" vehicles, that dually act as daily drivers / weekend warriors, when the need arises. What we haven't seen, thus far, is a stripped-to-the-bones, high-performance trail rig emerge from the bowels of City Saddar Road. Something which, quite frankly, I find quite amazing.

    Conceptually speaking, this shouldn't be a very difficult thing. After having learned much on the subject from rebuilding the Phantom (an FJ40; with a 1HZ engine, H150F transmission, Series 60 axle tubes, a 7:37 diff gear ratio, 42 inch tyres, and four doors), I've come to the conclusion that such a vehicle should NOT be a very difficult thing to build, at all. It should be an out-and-out off roader, with little/no creature comforts (we already have Willys and MUTTs and Unimogs, which are quite unadorned, that way)...it should boast incredible performance (engine, transmission, 4WD, differential locks, power steering, recovery systems)...should be capable of donning different wheels for its employment, in different avatars (tall/skinny for rallying/endurance/speed and thick/broad for traction and grip during hardcore wheeling).

    Does such a vehicle require a body? I think not. Why shouldn't it have nothing but a tubular exo-skeleton / roll-cage built around the frame? Why should it need mudguards? Do we really have a requirement for any fancy electronics, other than those necessary for the engine management, lights, and winch etc? Must it be built around an expensive frame? Or could a simple, cheap, basic frame such as that of an M38 suffice? I've asked myself these questions, many a time, and for such a purpose-built rig, the answer has been pretty obvious, each time.

    This thread, deals with the conceptual parameters of building such a radical ride. I'm going to jot down a few details that I have in mind...and I would love for the more knowledgeable amongst us, to step forward and add their opinion, advice, and criticism to the pot. I would also really appreciate it, if someone could also provide some feedback / input on the possible prices of the items I'm mentioning below. Some time, some day...one amongst us, will make this pipe-dream appear as reality, Insha Allah!

    Frame
    M38 frame and voucher (the cheapest that is available in the market)

    Engine / Transmission Choices
    1UZ-FE VVTi (300 bhp), mated to an H150F 5 speed manual transmission.
    1FZ-FE Black Top (224 bhp), mated to an H150 5 speed manual transmission, or a 4 speed auto tranny.
    2UZ-FE VVTi (271 bhp), mated to a 4/5 speed auto transmission.


    Axles
    Toyota Series 60 Axle Tubes, running 9:37 or 10:41 diff gear ratios, with electronic diff locks.
    Nissan Patrol Axle Tubes, running 9:37 or 10:41 diff gear ratios, with electronic diff locks.

    Tyres
    1 set each, of tall/skinny and fat/grippy tyres, in 33 inch and 38 inch avatars, respectively.

    Steering
    Power assisted, with a kanghi-type steering box.

    Winch
    Warn
    Toyota OEM

    Body Styling (& Miscellaneous)
    None. It simply uses an arrangement of pipes bolted onto the frame as an exo-skeleton, which doubles as a roll-over cage as well. No mudguards, no wheel-wells, no body panels...in short; NOTHING which can encumber / hinder the mechanicals of the vehicle. Coilover springs (long travel). 4 wheel disc brakes. On board air, via a compressor. Steering stabilizers. Racing seats (with four point harnesses). A GPS. PERHAPS, a fold-down windscreen. PERHAPS a bikini top made out of vinyl / leatherite for wet weather.

    In my mind's eye, I already have a fair idea of what this ride SHOULD look like. When I find a photo on the internet that comes close to what I believe it should be...I'll be sure to post it. In the meanwhile, if anyone would like to indulge their creativity / technical expertise with adding to this thread...please feel welcome.

    Best regards.

    Fouad.

    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    BTW...Yaser: you're a VERY bad man for bringing up that ratrod concept, out of the blue.

    I'm having second thoughts, already.
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    I love ratrods...the concept and execution of the whole thing..make it look sound and crazy...it's the ideal thing to build in Pakistan ...all them bits and bobs lying around...it would be an awesome project....
    Pakistan.. Toyota hilux..golf mk2 gtd..rolla 2.0d..nissian sunny.. Yamaha pw 50.. Coventry uk....audi v8 d11..golf mk2 rallye..honda crx..evo 8..golf mk2 gtd..Vauxhall insignia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by fouadhafeez View Post
    Suhaib Bhai...Nikku Ustaad ko yeh kaise samjhainge: "Ustaad Ji...idda engine iddi pichhli aali side tey laana aey"

    And who would be able to tolerate the looks of amazement they'd give you: "iss waari...aey bilkul liwanna ho gaya aey"
    Actually, I discussed it with some Citi Sadarers....... they showed me the door, leading onto Nalla Lai i.e.

    But seriously I did get them to see it in the end! The way I explained it was that you take a stock FJ40, remove the body, flip the seats so they face back, flip the axles front to back and back to front, flip them right to left and left to right to line up shafts, link the steering/pedals and voila! Obviously that was a down right dirty example but even here the only one issue was not being able to turn steering fully because of stock frame, otherwise its a pretty workable theory!
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Bro ..I think it's mounted in the middle/ back ..to balance the weight ...when the thing comes off the ground it lands level..or climbing you have the same weight on all wheels.. I might be wrong..I'm still learning..
    Pakistan.. Toyota hilux..golf mk2 gtd..rolla 2.0d..nissian sunny.. Yamaha pw 50.. Coventry uk....audi v8 d11..golf mk2 rallye..honda crx..evo 8..golf mk2 gtd..Vauxhall insignia..

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    @Teeboyuk: The ratrod concept is ANOTHER thing I've mentally toyed about with, before (I seem to do that, a lot!). And it's quite easy to undertake. For example, if you compare the 1.2 Mn "price-tag" I was applying to the ORV, you'll see that the ratrod would cost MUCH less, and entail MUCH less work.

    Instead of buying a 1UZ-FE VVTi and mating it to a transmission and transfer case for roughly 400K, you simply import a nose-cut / half-cut engine (with air-flow, wiring looms, radiator...in short: the works) for 225K instead (I've done this).

    You have no need for expensive coilover shocks. Instead, you can keep much less pricey standard shocks. And lowering a car is probably always cheaper/easier than lifting it.

    No need for two sets of tyres. Use just one set of them. BEAUTIFUL ones. Slash the price of the wheels in half, straight off.

    No need for diff-lockable axles. Simply use ones from a Toyota Crown, instead. Or better yet...import those of the Lexus you're getting the nose-cut from.

    Winch? Nah.

    On board air? Nah.

    Body styles? Choose from the FJ40, the M38, the Willys / GPW, the CJ...or simply go ahead, and tube it up with an exo-skeleton, like you originally planned!

    Soooo...does anyone have a cheap Toyota Crown frame lying around?
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Ratrods are cool...but don't you want a proper tool ...that can grow..as you do..ratrods are two fingers up to hotrods..that we're the concept comes from...there maid from what ever you can find old trucks cars old shells..big disel engines..I find them cool because there a extension of there owners...if the guys a bit of nut case..his rides going to bonkers!!!...lol
    Pakistan.. Toyota hilux..golf mk2 gtd..rolla 2.0d..nissian sunny.. Yamaha pw 50.. Coventry uk....audi v8 d11..golf mk2 rallye..honda crx..evo 8..golf mk2 gtd..Vauxhall insignia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by fouadhafeez View Post
    Now that DOES look like fun, Yaser!

    Poor departure angle, though. The rear overhang is too long. The frame is unnecessarily long, too...although, I suppose it does add to some "anti-roll-over ability" in one way or the other. Wheels aren't big enough. The centre of gravity is kept low by keeping the vehicle low, too. So not enough clearance. And X 2, on the "the exo cage could be better"! Although, the rear mounted fuel tank (at least that's what I think it is) is a good idea to act as a counterbalance of sorts, for the engine weight up front
    it does provide a good starting point though... on the basis of simplicity. The over hang issue can be sorted quite easily... larger tires, chopping off the frame beyond the shackle bracket...OR if you want a more radical makeover, Bob the frame, throw in a multi-link suspension and viola... i think the length of the frame shouldnt be that much of an issue as most of our local shortbed trucks have wheelbases around 110" which is ideal for what youre looking to build... lateral stability can be improved by putting in billet spacers and off center wheels to increase track width... OR make extended a arms...increase track width by as much as 8-10" and increase suspension travel in the process. 10-12" of ground clearance should be enough. I would move the fuel cell/ tank infront of the axle and put a couple of wheels at the back to act as a counter weight
    More Power!!! More power....

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    @Teeboyuk

    A rat-rod build comes pretty close to the "concept" of the ORV I'd originally posted. It should be stripped-to-the-bones, place little emphasis on creature comforts, offer exceptional performance, and give a somewhat "unfinished" look (even if it's completely finished). I agree with your views, when you say that we can't really type-cast such a build, as having to have this-or-the-other part...and it should mostly be culled from what's readily available. But conversely, at the same time, such a build should follow a certain "method to the madness". The basics should be thoroughly researched, mentally dissected, and only then procured. Haphazard, directionless modifications can only be a bad thing.

    Again, what you say of builds "growing" is absolutely true. All good builds continue to evolve; they never truly reach fruition. And that is what Suhaib alludes to, when he mentions a project that has lasted him 10 years and is still taking oon new dimensions. So...whether THIS build is a 4wd rally vehicle, or a tarmac-shredding rat-rod...I have a belief that it would be no different from the principle I've just stated above. It would never really "come to an end". It would simply continue to become better...or worse, for the pocket!
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    Interesting! Most trophy trucks are mid mounted, almost all Class 1 buggies are rear mounted. Robby Gordon Hummer is rear mounted too. I am however not too sure how much difference it really would make when you are running in 4x4 though and the 1UZ and LS series aluminum block engines are pretty light to begin with... but still given a choice I would rather have it at the back then at the front for a desert racer, especially if its something other than these two engines or even these with turbos....
    I think the main reason they put the engine in the mid config is because of the 2wd nature of trophy trucks...

    130" of wheelbase + 800-900hp on tap + rocks, bushes + engine up front = high torsional loads on a very very long driveshaft... you'll need to make the thing of aircraft grade materials to withstand that kind of abuse. So the simple answer to the above problem ... mount the engine at the back, simplify the drive train and viola!

    we're more of a "short-course" type of folk here suhaib... trophy trucks aint for us... although i'm game if anyone wants to make a midi-truck... nikku ko samjha lein ge

    on the weight distribution piece, its important... most def! but i've seen trucks with the engines mounted upfront... 60/40 weight distributions... you just play around with suspension dampening characteristics to make the truck behave the way you want in that case... it'll still land almost level with that kind of weight dist... plus with almost 30" of travel in some cases doesnt really hurt if you land slightly on the nose
    More Power!!! More power....

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    Quote Originally Posted by fouadhafeez View Post
    BTW...Yaser: you're a VERY bad man for bringing up that ratrod concept, out of the blue.

    I'm having second thoughts, already.
    no no... first you build the ORV and then the rat rod ... here's another ratrod to drive you mad! well its more of a hotrod! based on an RT40 corona, with an Uzi ofcourse A Somewhat Strange Rebuild -1049372A Somewhat Strange Rebuild -1049373A Somewhat Strange Rebuild -1049374A Somewhat Strange Rebuild -1049375
    More Power!!! More power....

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaserag View Post
    it does provide a good starting point though... on the basis of simplicity. The over hang issue can be sorted quite easily... larger tires, chopping off the frame beyond the shackle bracket...OR if you want a more radical makeover, Bob the frame, throw in a multi-link suspension and viola... i think the length of the frame shouldnt be that much of an issue as most of our local shortbed trucks have wheelbases around 110" which is ideal for what youre looking to build... lateral stability can be improved by putting in billet spacers and off center wheels to increase track width... OR make extended a arms...increase track width by as much as 8-10" and increase suspension travel in the process. 10-12" of ground clearance should be enough. I would move the fuel cell/ tank infront of the axle and put a couple of wheels at the back to act as a counter weight
    Agreed. It is a starting point, for reference.

    I have a few queries, though.

    Where in Pakistan, would you be able to fabricate multi-link suspension...and more importantly, where would you be able to precisely tune/adjust the steering geometry, thereafter? The same applies to fabricating extended suspension arms. Where? And who? From my understanding of things, these modifications are NOT ones which you see readily/easily done. And while our technicians and fabricators are exceptionally gifted when it comes to most things...I simply don't place much trust in them to deliver upon precision-tooled parts from scratch. Building something theoretically is all very easy...bringing it to life in steel is a different matter, altogether. And, at the type of speeds such a vehicle would hypothetically be capable of, even minor foibles/inconsistencies/inadequacies may prove to be life-threatening.

    Another reason why I'd personally stick to mostly-stock/off-the-shelf parts...at least you have peace of mind that they're fabricated to certain specifications and tolerances in terms of stress-bearing ability, metallurgy, and fit/finish.
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fouadhafeez View Post
    Agreed. It is a starting point, for reference.

    I have a few queries, though.

    Where in Pakistan, would you be able to fabricate multi-link suspension...and more importantly, where would you be able to precisely tune/adjust the steering geometry, thereafter? The same applies to fabricating extended suspension arms. Where? And who? From my understanding of things, these modifications are NOT ones which you see readily/easily done. And while our technicians and fabricators are exceptionally gifted when it comes to most things...I simply don't place much trust in them to deliver upon precision-tooled parts from scratch. Building something theoretically is all very easy...bringing it to life in steel is a different matter, altogether. And, at the type of speeds such a vehicle would hypothetically be capable of, even minor foibles/inconsistencies/inadequacies may prove to be life-threatening.

    Another reason why I'd personally stick to mostly-stock/off-the-shelf parts...at least you have peace of mind that they're fabricated to certain specifications and tolerances in terms of stress-bearing ability, metallurgy, and fit/finish.
    PM me your cell no, i drop in on pindi tonite... we discuss tomorrow or sunday on how to go about multi links
    More Power!!! More power....

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaserag View Post
    no no... first you build the ORV and then the rat rod ... here's another ratrod to drive you mad! well its more of a hotrod! based on an RT40 corona, with an Uzi ofcourse
    ANOTHER beautiful ride! Call me biased, though...I still prefer the photos of the jeep-styled rat-rod you posted earlier...and not JUST because of the model in some of the photos. I barely even noticed her
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaserag View Post
    we're more of a "short-course" type of folk here suhaib... trophy trucks aint for us... although i'm game if anyone wants to make a midi-truck... nikku ko samjha lein ge
    Well, I am not sure what kinda people we are, in the sense that the goal posts seem to be shifting a bit
    Nevertheless, trust me, not so deep down, we are all trophy truck people
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    ...the goal posts seem to be shifting a bit...
    You know, at the end of the day, I very strongly suspect: ORV AND ratrod. Of course, this is ALL Yaser's fault, for bringing up the subject in the first place!
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by fouadhafeez View Post
    ANOTHER beautiful ride! Call me biased, though...I still prefer the photos of the jeep-styled rat-rod you posted earlier...and not JUST because of the model in some of the photos. I barely even noticed her
    i would agree, has a LOT more character
    More Power!!! More power....

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    Gotta run for now, guys.

    Will continue to contemplate various 1UZ potentials whilst grocery shopping.
    Always buy cars which your children love. They'll be helpful allies against your wife, later on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    Well, I am not sure what kinda people we are, in the sense that the goal posts seem to be shifting a bit
    Nevertheless, trust me, not so deep down, we are all trophy truck people
    yeah there's something about barreling towards the horizon at breakneck speed with a cloud of dust at the back... bigger is def better in this case
    More Power!!! More power....

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    I know everyone can have different views, but 1UZ aur Toyota parts ke saath karney wala jaiz kaam meree nazar mein aik hee hai. An Ironman replica for under PKR 1.2 mln would definately be a story Details here: Ivan ?Ironman? Stewart?s PPI 015 Trophy Truck ? race-deZert.com

    A Somewhat Strange Rebuild - race dezert ivan stewart 0077

    A Somewhat Strange Rebuild - race dezert ivan stewart 0047

    A Somewhat Strange Rebuild - race dezert ivan stewart 0032
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    PakWheeler Follow
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    I know everyone can have different views, but 1UZ aur Toyota parts ke saath karney wala jaiz kaam meree nazar mein aik hee hai. An Ironman replica for under PKR 1.2 mln would definately be a story Details here: Ivan ?Ironman? Stewart?s PPI 015 Trophy Truck ? race-deZert.com

    A Somewhat Strange Rebuild - race dezert ivan stewart 0077

    A Somewhat Strange Rebuild - race dezert ivan stewart 0047

    A Somewhat Strange Rebuild - race dezert ivan stewart 0032
    Million$... million Rs. whats the difference.... not much... worth a shot. lets say we go 50/50... and we drive alternate stages
    More Power!!! More power....

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