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Thread: Pakistan's Japanese-dominated car market poised for new entrants

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    Default Pakistan's Japanese-dominated car market poised for new entrants

    Pakistan's Japanese-dominated car market poised for new entrants - d19448d6 6aaa 4359 a768 eadacf5fbca9 afp gif new By Masroor GILANI

    Islamabad (AFP) - Pakistan's car market has been dominated by Japanese automakers for decades, but a mini-economic revival looks set to attract new players from Europe and Korea into the mix.


    Despite heavy taxation on imported vehicles, enthusiasm for owning a car in Pakistan has remained undented -- thanks in part to underdeveloped public transport in the country's sprawling cities, but also the social status it brings.
    Toyota, Suzuki and Honda car assembly plants already work around the clock in the southern port city of Karachi and eastern Lahore -- yet customers can still wait for up to four months for new vehicles to be delivered.

    Now demand for cars in the South Asian giant of 200 million people is accelerating even more quickly, as economic growth has reached its fastest pace since 2008 while renewed investor confidence and easing inflation have spurred consumer spending.
    Keen to cash in, a delegation from German auto giant Volkswagen visited the country in recent weeks, according to Pakistani officials and German diplomats.

    Company spokesman Christoph Adomat told AFP that while "Volkswagen is constantly evaluating market opportunities on a worldwide basis... there are no decisions for an investment from Volkswagen side in Pakistan".
    View gallery
    Pakistan's Japanese-dominated car market poised for new entrants - Part HKG Hkg10198016 1 1 0
    Demand for cars in Pakistan is accelerating as economic growth has reached its fastest pace since 20 ?

    Miftah Ismail, the chairman of Pakistan Board of Investment who took part in the talks, said Volkswagen was not the only company expressing an interest.

    "There are a number of other companies from (South) Korea and Europe that we are talking to who are thinking of setting up assembly plants in Pakistan," he said, without naming the firms.

    - Japanese stranglehold -

    US and European cars dominated Pakistan's roads in the early years after it gained independence from Britain in 1947.
    But fuel prices made their compact, efficient Japanese rivals more popular and from the 1960s onwards manufacturers like Toyota, Suzuki and Honda gained a stranglehold on the market.
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    Pakistan's Japanese-dominated car market poised for new entrants - Part HKG Hkg10198018 1 1 0
    Car sales in Pakistan in the 11 months to May this year rose 30% from a year earlier, according to a ?

    Italy's Fiat made a brief foray in the 1990s, while South Korea's Hyundai as well as Daewoo-owned Chevrolet tried -- and failed -- to gain a foothold in the 2000s before the financial crisis forced them to exit.

    Because Pakistan charges heavy duties on imported cars less than three years old, Japanese companies with in-country assembly operations can set prices significantly above the regional average.


    The bottom-of-the-range Suzuki Mehran costs the equivalent of $6,300 in Pakistan but sells for around $3,900 in neighbouring India. The most popular Corolla 1.3 sedan starts at 1.6 million rupees ($16,000), but buyers have to wait months or pay $1,500 for prompt delivery.


    The news that Volkswagen was exploring options to enter the Pakistani market has excited car enthusiasts, who are tired of high prices and limited choices.


    "I think it is a great idea because Volkswagen cars are value for money and reliability," said Romano Karim, a fan of the classic Volkswagen Beetles from the 60s and 70s that can often be seen on Pakistan's roads.

    View gallery
    Pakistan's Japanese-dominated car market poised for new entrants - Part HKG Hkg10198017 1 1 0
    Because Pakistan charges heavy duties on imported cars less than three years old, Japanese companies ?

    Haji Mohammad Shahzad, chairman of the All Pakistan Motor Dealers Association, added that having Volkswagen in the market would help drive costs down.

    "The monopoly of big three could be broken if Volkswagen produces at least 20,000-25,000 cars annually," Shahzad told AFP.


    - Renewed confidence -


    Global auto giants are attracted by Pakistan's booming economy, which the International Monetary Fund predicts will grow by 4.5 percent in the next financial year.

    Investor confidence in the medium-sized economy of $232 billion has improved since a new business-friendly government led by Nawaz Sharif took power in 2013, with Karachi's share market among the world's top 10 performers in the past year.
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    Pakistan's Japanese-dominated car market poised for new entrants - Part HKG Hkg10198020 1 1 0
    Car sales in Pakistan have boomed thanks to the growth of car leasing and financing facilities (AFP)

    The country is also undergoing a major construction boom driven by Chinese investment after President Xi Jinping visited Islamabad in April to unveil a $46 billion investment plan known as the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.

    Car sales have also boomed thanks to the growth of car leasing and financing facilities. Sales in the 11 months to May this year rose 30 percent from a year earlier, according to industry group the Pakistan Automotive Manufacturers Association.

    Baber Kaleem Khan, editor of PakWheels.com magazine, said Volkswagen would be well poised to tap into the lower to mid-range market.

    "Pakistani automakers haven't really had much competition because their respective domains are well protected by monopolistic business practices," Khan told AFP.


    "But given VW's impressive small-range of vehicles, the German automaker can take the market from the ground up and start working to the top."
    Be polite on the road. Always give way to others, particularly ambulances and pedestrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotaryinfinity View Post
    I can tell you one thing, if a Pakistani wants something, he's going to get it no matter what. That's what I have seen across all my journeys on this flat earth.
    yes - he's going to get it no matter what, thats why all the governments have been lining their pockets with money "bass paisa chahiye - NO MATTER WHAT"

    then we see - the no matter what elsewhere too - e.g. guy wants some cash, you see them looting dead bodies in plane crashes. lol

    yep - and please do tell us where this earth is flat..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    you do know that airbags, ABS, EBD, VSC, immobiliser come at a cost, your 2 million civic will be sitting at 3 million at current exchange rate - would you be happy with paying that 3 mil?
    I see small JDMs with all these features no where near the 3 million mark. So yes the Gov is to blame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    also note that all the above technologies mean that the "poshish walay ustaad with "SRS airbag" ki die set" would have to close down shop, so would babloo ustaad lektrishann. So unless you are 100% ready for a huge jump in repair cost - be happy with what you have.
    I'd like to disagree. EFI came, no one knew about them and boom fast forward few years and everyone is an expert. Not giving these features just because of these reasons is absurd. Mechanics deal in cars if there is new tech they'll have to adapt, yes transition would be difficult but they'll make do and the new features will become the new normal. The gov just has to be brave enough or else with that mentality we'll keep getting mehran cos the "Mechanics" know how to repair that $h!t.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly_Flame View Post
    I see small JDMs with all these features no where near the 3 million mark. So yes the Gov is to blame.



    I'd like to disagree. EFI came, no one knew about them and boom fast forward few years and everyone is an expert. Not giving these features just because of these reasons is absurd. Mechanics deal in cars if there is new tech they'll have to adapt, yes transition would be difficult but they'll make do and the new features will become the new normal. The gov just has to be brave enough or else with that mentality we'll keep getting mehran cos the "Mechanics" know how to repair that $h!t.
    nope i would still call them far from expert on efi as well, take the example of throttle body washing, its simply not required in efi cars nor is there any tuning to do on efi cars but ustaads love cleaning throttle bodies in the name of tuning because thats what they used to do with carburetor cars, and still do jugaars with wiring nito tape and all and are simply stumped by o2 sensors.
    If everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane!

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    Quote Originally Posted by arzaam.bhatti View Post
    nope i would still call them far from expert on efi as well
    True, but the point I was trying to make was that we cannot be coaxed into accepting what comes our way due to fear of the change. Yes, there will be problems in the start and there are whenever there is a change and there never will be a good time to shift, but eventually we will have to. Now who will decide what time is the better time? Besides we can now easily get work done on our EFI engines as there are many capable people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadly_Flame View Post
    True, but the point I was trying to make was that we cannot be coaxed into accepting what comes our way due to fear of the change. Yes, there will be problems in the start and there are whenever there is a change and there never will be a good time to shift, but eventually we will have to. Now who will decide what time is the better time? Besides we can now easily get work done on our EFI engines as there are many capable people.

    I think you are not understanding the point which is under debate, first you pile up your debate with falani jdm car has air bags and I can get that used car for half cost in Pakistan. to compare apples to apples, please import a brand new JDM car in Pakistan and then import some "brand new" air bag assemblies too. Once you do please post your costs here on PW.

    Now for the efi lektrishann hazraat doing ustaadee on the cars being driven in Pakistan, if you consider them expert then I for sure do not want to know what you consider novice. Nothing has changed since I left, the technology knowledge base is still 20 years behind in Pakistan, when Pakistan saw basic dumb EFI cars - the world was already at dbw, electronic shift gearboxes, CAN BUS network and ultra clean emmissions. 20 years later you are seeing SFI engines by the lot in scrapyards (1UZ, 2JZ etc) and think that babloo ustaad is hazrat awesome RA because he can connect 4 wires. The issue is that the world has gone 20 years ahead already. To test this notion, take a car to him and ask him to do an injector balance test without removing them, or get him to test an intermittent speed sensor failure in a mercedes benz 5 spd automatic or even test a failed can signal from the shifter (this gearbox is 20 years old now). Even simpler would be to take a locally available nissan cefiro and ask him to diagnose a P0171 fault on it without shotgunning parts at it.

    And now the brightest cherry we see, transport and vehicles in Pakistan is still a luxury (thats why you have the giant duty structure) - The dream of dozens of brands in Pakistan can only be true if the taxation, duty structure and governance in Pakistan is completely rebooted and made transparent - I am pretty sure that there will never come a day like that - atleast in my life - my reservation for saying this is based on living there, contracting for the govt and also rubbing shoulders with some so called elite. Nothing will ever change, all you will ever see "mera hamsaaya mein train, bus, khajoor ke darakht etc". The big seat of Pakistan is actually a bidding contest and when once gets the seat they have to recoup the expenditure of getting that seat, which is done by neatly channeling money into private accounts.

    you are talking of something that is only affecting about 40% of the 0.1 percentile of the whole populace that owns a transport vehicle, the rest are still wondering when it will be easy to have shelter, food and clothing
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    I think you are not understanding the point which is under debate
    Yes Please lets get back to the point under debate. Your point was to be content with what we have (mehran) because mechanics here can repair a mehran. Well I think we've been content long enough and an upgrade in the car tech is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    first you pile up your debate with falani jdm car has air bags and I can get that used car for half cost in Pakistan. to compare apples to apples, please import a brand new JDM car in Pakistan and then import some "brand new" air bag assemblies too. Once you do please post your costs here on PW.
    A brand new kei car can be imported below 15 lac, not a used one, a brand new one. I think comparing a kei car with the new cars here is not a flawed comparison, correct me if I am wrong. Yes I did not factor in the import duty on the "Brand New" air bag assembly and I am sure that would be costly. But going back to my argument, it is not my headache, the premise of my argument was the top 3 automakers abusing us and since they are the ones who'll bare the cost of "that" assembly, I don't give a damn how damn expensive it might be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    Now for the efi lektrishann hazraat doing ustaadee on the cars being driven in Pakistan, if you consider them expert then I for sure do not want to know what you consider novice.
    I like your sarcasm! but if you focus on my post you quoted, the first word is "True" that is me agreeing with arzaam.bhatti where he pointed out that they are not all experts. So no I do not consider them all experts, I wonder if you'd now like to know what I consider novice. Just to reiterate I know not all EFI mechanics are experts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    Nothing has changed since I left, the technology knowledge base is still 20 years behind in Pakistan, when Pakistan saw basic dumb EFI cars - the world was already at dbw, electronic shift gearboxes, CAN BUS network and ultra clean emmissions. 20 years later you are seeing SFI engines by the lot in scrapyards (1UZ, 2JZ etc) and think that babloo ustaad is hazrat awesome RA because he can connect 4 wires. The issue is that the world has gone 20 years ahead already.
    And yet you want us to be content with what we have. The issue is that the world has gone 20 years ahead already, right you are, it pains me as well and precisely for that reason I'd like some upgrade in tech and it brings me no pleasure to know that Honda, Toyota and Suzuki's sales have doubled and yet they are not reciprocating a little of their accumulated wealth to the end consumer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    To test this notion, take a car to him and ask him to do an injector balance test without removing them, or get him to test an intermittent speed sensor failure in a mercedes benz 5 spd automatic or even test a failed can signal from the shifter (this gearbox is 20 years old now). Even simpler would be to take a locally available nissan cefiro and ask him to diagnose a P0171 fault on it without shotgunning parts at it.
    I am pretty sure most of them cannot, (heck I don't even know what some of these things are) but still there will be few who can. Even without those things EFI cars have been here for a while now. I am sure there will be a similar story with a little of more latest technology. Besides these are rare repair issues, faced by people mostly swapping their cars with used engines. With a new engine kept with care people won't really have to worry about these for a long while. And here I thought we were to compare apples with apples, Mercs are relatively complex cars I was focusing more on Honda, Toyota, Suzuki. Hopefully if and when they offer a little new tech, they'll be able to repair those too, if and when a problem occurs(low probability) as the cars will be new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    And now the brightest cherry we see, transport and vehicles in Pakistan is still a luxury (thats why you have the giant duty structure) - The dream of dozens of brands in Pakistan can only be true if the taxation, duty structure and governance in Pakistan is completely rebooted and made transparent - I am pretty sure that there will never come a day like that - atleast in my life - my reservation for saying this is based on living there, contracting for the govt and also rubbing shoulders with some so called elite. Nothing will ever change, all you will ever see "mera hamsaaya mein train, bus, khajoor ke darakht etc". The big seat of Pakistan is actually a bidding contest and when once gets the seat they have to recoup the expenditure of getting that seat, which is done by neatly channeling money into private accounts.
    Sadly you are right, 90% of the bureaucracy is corrupt and unless we invest in education and improve the budget from a paltry 2.1% we'll be exploited as has been the norm since as far as I can remember. Mahatir Mohammad allocated more than 25% of the budget for education and we all know how far ahead they (Malaysia) are.

    Btw my dream is not of many brands, for now the dream of a little better cars from the current automakers would suffice. Hopefully with improved education and awareness among the masses other dreams will be realized, how long that'll take its really hard to say though its not any time soon and that's for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    you are talking of something that is only affecting about 40% of the 0.1 percentile of the whole populace that owns a transport vehicle, the rest are still wondering when it will be easy to have shelter, food and clothing
    Now this is a separate debate totally, I don't see how you brought it up here, I am not belittling its significance, but this is a discussion for a different platform. With that line of argument we shouldn't discuss anything before terrorism, if there is life only then we move ahead to other things. More on this later if you'd like to continue, but I think we'll have pretty much a same line of thought to the above mentioned issues.

    My question to you is; How long do we have to be content to deserve some improved automobiles?

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    lets get something straight, lets take a more simplistic approach - which affects the whole lot of electricity consumers in Pakistan,

    how many electricians do you know that actually are scholastically qualified to work on residential electric circuits or even small scale commercial?

    Now lets change the bases, replace electricity with HVAC, do you know of any AC technicians in Pakistan who do correct work? Can they give you a quantifiable answer to lack of performance from a unit? Or would you simply trust the "china gess hai bhai - 2 no. aati hai - iss liye cooling bekaar hai" comment and then pay him?

    lets put it into perspective of owning a car.

    you take your awesome CAN-BUS network car with some hidden stupid problem to get it diagnosed, would you be content with the aam ustaad/shaagird tech shotgunning parts at it on your cost? - and you end up with nitto tape wiring joints and check light rigged with oil pressure switch. Or would you pay extra for a qualified person who actually spent money to learn this and get manufacturer data?

    btw - 20 year old gearbox from mercedes benz is supposed to be easy to diagnose for Pakistani techs now, as its been 2 decades, lots have been available in scrap for dirt cheap for experimentation or studying - they cannot even diagnose a burnt torque converter in a honda unit - just replace it (torque converter) from scrapyard and proceed to burn it again, no care about what actually caused it - their remedy is "kabli gearbox" - very similar to saying that you need to throw away a network switch because the patch cables connected to it are bad - Im sure you wont employ such a network technician to work for you.



    my point is that - people in Pakistan want everything in the world without cost or pain. The only points of measurement that are seen are "india me fallana technology hai OR maghrib/vilayat mein zabardast technology hai" - rather than seeing how can a system be put in service in your structure - short cuts are applied. Look at electricity deployment in any old commercial building - it looks like a spider on caffeine was tripping on LSD. Did you ever think what led to such bad management??

    no-one actually stops to look how the system worked to get it there, all that is "WANTED" is "buss abhi abhi chahiye kyunke parosi ke pass hai aur apni naak oonchi rakhnee hai" absolutely no damn is given to the core/genesis/structural level of things.


    Let me examplify a situation.
    Car = Honda civic 2006 automatic transmission - car made in Pakistan.
    problem: transmission is slipping in all gears (ATF is full but is burnt) - CEL is active with TCC speed fault.
    remedy: transmission is faulty - repair is required.

    you have two options

    1 - scrapyard kabuli buxa with unknown life with 1 week change warranty installed by ustaad = Rs 24,000/-
    2 - rebuilt unit with new and updated parts and rebuilt torque converter = Rs 80,000/- plus labour

    What would your choice be? (btw I used to face this a lot)




    To answer your last question - you yourself can resolve that, Make a workable system and follow it like gospel, strike anything that tries to leech it or hot plug it. You will find your answer yourself. - In more simple diction, know how to build bricks before you build a wall - buying bricks is not an answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    lets get something straight, lets take a more simplistic approach - which affects the whole lot of electricity consumers in Pakistan,

    how many electricians do you know that actually are scholastically qualified to work on residential electric circuits or even small scale commercial?

    Now lets change the bases, replace electricity with HVAC, do you know of any AC technicians in Pakistan who do correct work? Can they give you a quantifiable answer to lack of performance from a unit? Or would you simply trust the "china gess hai bhai - 2 no. aati hai - iss liye cooling bekaar hai" comment and then pay him?

    lets put it into perspective of owning a car.

    you take your awesome CAN-BUS network car with some hidden stupid problem to get it diagnosed, would you be content with the aam ustaad/shaagird tech shotgunning parts at it on your cost? - and you end up with nitto tape wiring joints and check light rigged with oil pressure switch. Or would you pay extra for a qualified person who actually spent money to learn this and get manufacturer data?
    So you are proposing we be content with old tech because the local repair man hasn't the tools, skills or capacity to repair a fault that might occur (low priority as the car will be new). I am with you on this, but will this mean that if and when the automakers introduce the new features they themselves won't be able to repair those issues? Remember we are arguing why not to introduce new features in the cars here and the one reason not to introduce them (according to you) is that local mechanics cannot repair the issues. Even if they can't, not introducing the new features just on the basis of this is not enough. As the automakers along with a few others will be able to make the said (rare) repairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    btw - 20 year old gearbox from mercedes benz is supposed to be easy to diagnose for Pakistani techs now, as its been 2 decades, lots have been available in scrap for dirt cheap for experimentation or studying - they cannot even diagnose a burnt torque converter in a honda unit - just replace it (torque converter) from scrapyard and proceed to burn it again, no care about what actually caused it - their remedy is "kabli gearbox" - very similar to saying that you need to throw away a network switch because the patch cables connected to it are bad - Im sure you wont employ such a network technician to work for you.
    Ofcourse not, but the mechanics got to experiment, the features under discussion are not really swap happy in this country, so the current local mechanics might not get the chance their forefathers did to enhance their capability. So incidentally they'll have to start somewhere that'll be possible only when the demand (of the said features) here increases, which will happen only when those features are introduced here. As mentioned earlier people don't swap these features so their reality compared to engines is different and thus they won't be available in the scrap markets for the mechanics to experiment upon.

    Anyways by this line of argument EFI engines were prematurely introduced to this market since even now mechanics can't repair it properly, so we don't deserve this technology as well and should've had carby cars here. Yet some people are enjoying trouble free EFI cars without the need for the repairs (rare)you are referring to here. So if I go along with your reasoning, in true essence we deserve carby cars and that is truly what we should be content with as the local mechanics are capable enough to repair those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    my point is that - people in Pakistan want everything in the world without cost or pain. The only points of measurement that are seen are "india me fallana technology hai OR maghrib/vilayat mein zabardast technology hai" - rather than seeing how can a system be put in service in your structure - short cuts are applied. Look at electricity deployment in any old commercial building - it looks like a spider on caffeine was tripping on LSD. Did you ever think what led to such bad management??
    Your point to begin with was that the Pakistanis be content with what they have not what you are stating above. The point of your above statements in context of the debate at hand is beyond me, examples you are quoting to drive your point home are not applicable here. I'll entertain it nonetheless (in context of the debate here), the features under discussion are/were immobilizer, ABS, air bags and a few more. If you are saying that the Pakistanis want these features because "vilayat mei falana technology hai" I salute you sir!

    You say Pakistanis should realize the structural constraints before demanding for these features. Tell me again how the end user can ensure a conducive environment for the introduction of these features. Riddle me this, why would a local mechanic learn about how to repair the new features when the demand is non-existent? But hey they've lots of resources they should spend some money learn how to repair so and so feature because with their knowledge a conducive environment will be produced and give a reason to big 3 to invest in the new features. Yeah right, don't tax the elite (big 3) put more pressure on the underprivileged by making them the custodian of that conducive environment instead of the big 3.

    You like to talk big, please enlighten us how the Pakistanis are going for the short-cut when demanding for these features and what prerequisites are they to fulfill at their end to be eligible for these features. I do request you to please present a relevant counter argument instead of coming up with "how Pakistanis want western democracy while they are still stuck in the patwari culture" that is all good and to which I'll agree but it's not the topic of this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    no-one actually stops to look how the system worked to get it there, all that is "WANTED" is "buss abhi abhi chahiye kyunke parosi ke pass hai aur apni naak oonchi rakhnee hai" absolutely no damn is given to the core/genesis/structural level of things.

    Let me examplify a situation.
    Car = Honda civic 2006 automatic transmission - car made in Pakistan.
    problem: transmission is slipping in all gears (ATF is full but is burnt) - CEL is active with TCC speed fault.
    remedy: transmission is faulty - repair is required.

    you have two options

    1 - scrapyard kabuli buxa with unknown life with 1 week change warranty installed by ustaad = Rs 24,000/-
    2 - rebuilt unit with new and updated parts and rebuilt torque converter = Rs 80,000/- plus labour

    What would your choice be? (btw I used to face this a lot)
    "Bus abhi abhi chahiyae" are you kidding me man? ABS, airbags, immobilizers etc. yeh abhi abhi nai aaye, arsa daraz ho gaya hai inn ko aye huaye abb bhi na mangein tau phir kub maangein? As for the above example had my engine (kabuli buxa with 1 week warranty) replaced on the 97 civic, been almost 2.5 years Alhamdullilah running strong. So some research and a mildly capable mechanic is enough, so my choice would be to go for a kabuli buxa with some effort from my side to search for a good motor. But that's besides the point, new cars kept with mild care are less likely to develop these issues, and when you say the issue was faced a lot what percentage of the total cars developed this issue and then again what percentage developed the issue due to total neglect of the vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    To answer your last question - you yourself can resolve that, Make a workable system and follow it like gospel, strike anything that tries to leech it or hot plug it. You will find your answer yourself. - In more simple diction, know how to build bricks before you build a wall - buying bricks is not an answer.
    The question was how long do we have to be content and your answer a generic statement with no relevance whatsoever to the debate at hand and a very poor analogy. The workable system you are talking about is not the end consumer's responsibility, it's the government's and big 3's, they have the resources and means to ensure that. And unlike you I'll give a relevant example with the help of your skewed analogy, JDMs are the walls and their features are bricks and we see many JDMs and they've been here for quite some time now, wonder what JDM owners are doing considering the current structural level of things. If JDMs are doing fine with the current structure I am sure with some focus from the big 3 the overall picture will be better than this.

    And since you didn't answer my question, I'll ask again: How long do we have to be content to deserve the said features from the big 3.

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    to keep it simple - as I see you like to tear words apart and then try to hammer the point the way you like it. Good for you - you sound like a student of law

    You say that you want features from local assemblers, like immobilisers, suzuki already gave it - what did the average owner do with it? - bypassed it because chaabi ustaad said its cheaper. - RING A BELL? - so immobiliser was there - but user didnt want it.

    air bags?? - kei cars are arriving with blown bags and poshish ustaad covers it with fiberglas - average guy buys it, doesnt give a damn, even buys the little belt buckle clip to silence the beeper (not wear the belt)

    and these are cheap cars too - if you want to price out the extra cost of adding such features on your new local made car - price it out - your mehran price will jump to 1.5 million, your civic will be at 3.0 - can you gather the whole consumer base of these cars to agree to the price hike? As of now the manufacturer knows that adding price will cause sales loss for them - they dont want to make their product unsalable.

    your country's average car buyer doesnt give two hoots of such tech - infact most are still unable to afford its petrol cost for a solid month (CNG drama), all repairs are afforded with junkyards - new parts sales are less than 10% of repairs. What this means (to me at least) is - technology chahiye - india mein hai, vilayat me hai, amreeka me hai, japaan me hai hamein abhi chahiye - when asked - bhai ye technology itnay hazaar dollar ki hai - they run away.

    I also see that you very nicely put aside my other examples or HVAC, electricity and network - I simply replaced the automotive incidents with them - care to answer on those?

    In short - and to make it sound very "marketing lingo" - there is no demand for such features on this product as the market segment who are the users of such cannot make head or tails out of it and neither is it reliably afforded in upkeep.

    Its a good "selling point"in Pakistan e.g. it would be one more badge on the back of your civic or corolla - you can now have toyota corolla altis SR, cruisetronic safety edition. If its more jingle or acronym - sounds good to sell in Pakistan.

    coming back to ustaad repairing dictating my comment - its the truth, look around you - how many people do you know who pay extra to get a repair done by a qualified person? or repair by manufacturer repair system - 100% people go to ustaad because "sastaa" and agree to the damages built into sastaa kaam - its not me talking big - its reality in Pakistan.

    Im sure you can find other industries with similar stupidity too. You can complain on that too.
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    let me examplify my concern to counter your riddle question.


    Unit: Toyota A340E automatic
    motive: Toyota 1GFE,
    vehicle: Crown
    fault: slipping in 3rd gear

    To satisfy me - I would want it repaired only after 100% dead on accurate diagnosis.

    If required then rebuilt with a new OE equipment banner kit - and tested as the manufacturer wants it. Can you provide names of local supplier with ready stock of parts, local available technician with transmission repair bench and tools to repair it?

    automatics are ancient now in Pakistan - the earliest go back to the 60s. The A340 is very close to the ancient 60s GM automatics but with very dumb binary electrics and an overdrive slapped in front.
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    and to further take apart your kabuli baxa purchase, did you ever test if its performing correct or was it "chalta hai to set hai". - My customers were the "kabaar gheyrbuxa" daala thaa - museebat kar raha hai - and then I would rebuild it - cost was WAY higher than scrap but it was control spec work. And dont assume stuff never breaks down - even cat powershift transmissions breakdown, they are as large as your whole honda civic and cost more than most houses in Pakistan.


    and coming to your prerequisites of getting such safety features.

    make mandates for emmissions and safety for automobiles and apply them - e.g. - no repair work is allowed on the frame of a car once its crashed, (car is not in control spec anymore) - no used safety parts are allowed to be installed (steering columns, air bags etc), no engine swapping allowed which involves cutting structure parts, heavy emmissions be banned - this does not equal slapping a 3 way cat converter on an engine, a 3w cat equipped engine has a very specific ecu to drive it and control the live fuel mix. (well - suzuki tried it on their cars, people are throwing out the cats faster than suzuki can install them - because - yeh faltoo hai, iss se petrol khata hai engine, - same as thermostat valve fear syndrome)

    make mandates for safety on road - e.g. qingqi ricksha have passengers as crumple zone (lol - you want airbags to save you as you hit them and make burger patties of their flesh) - double standards eh?

    you have wooden structure buses and trucks with heavy cargo on them on rickety suspension and brake systems which have been put out of commission decades ago even in the darkest of the 3rd world countries.

    When do you see such systems being booted out? - next tuesday? next year? next decade? next century?

    please bear in mind that technology pace is such that anything standing still is essentially moving backwards, next you will want to have self driving cars too because vilayat mein hai - apply that self driving car to pindi traffic at current and you will have your answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    to keep it simple - as I see you like to tear words apart and then try to hammer the point the way you like it. Good for you - you sound like a student of law

    You say that you want features from local assemblers, like immobilisers, suzuki already gave it - what did the average owner do with it? - bypassed it because chaabi ustaad said its cheaper. - RING A BELL? - so immobiliser was there - but user didnt want it.
    And since then, civic has it and corolla doesn't, care to share the theft rate of corolla compared to civic. Transition won't be smooth agreed but that doesn't mean its a useless technology. But again you are focusing on the repairs from chabi ustaad and I on the other hand realize that every tom dick and harry won't be able to repair it and the consumers will have to look for relatively capable people. The failed immobilizer was in the days long gone since then reborn came and I see it successful here. Why are corolla fans lamenting the omission of immobilizer from the new corolla? "Come on guys, you don't understand the market dynamics, now is not the right time to introduce immobilizer, we realize that your cars are being stolen every day but you've to understand if something happens to the immobilizer chabi ustaad won't be able to repair it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    air bags?? - kei cars are arriving with blown bags and poshish ustaad covers it with fiberglas - average guy buys it, doesnt give a damn, even buys the little belt buckle clip to silence the beeper (not wear the belt)
    Which average guys? most of the people going for JDMs know how it works and they get their blown air bags repaired from proper workshops. The "average guys" you are talking about don't go for JDMs they go for the beloved Xlis and Mehrans. Life is not precious, and since Pakistanis don't even use seat belts, hey lets not give them the feature, why should we (big 3 and the gov) enlighten them? Squeeze them while we can. Sounds like a plan we'll keep doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    and these are cheap cars too - if you want to price out the extra cost of adding such features on your new local made car - price it out - your mehran price will jump to 1.5 million, your civic will be at 3.0 - can you gather the whole consumer base of these cars to agree to the price hike? As of now the manufacturer knows that adding price will cause sales loss for them - they dont want to make their product unsalable.
    LOL no seriously LOL, heard of FAW Vizi V2???? I rest my case!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    your country's average car buyer doesnt give two hoots of such tech - infact most are still unable to afford its petrol cost for a solid month (CNG drama), all repairs are afforded with junkyards - new parts sales are less than 10% of repairs. What this means (to me at least) is - technology chahiye - india mein hai, vilayat me hai, amreeka me hai, japaan me hai hamein abhi chahiye - when asked - bhai ye technology itnay hazaar dollar ki hai - they run away.
    You are still stuck at that "abhi" man wakeup, kindly tell me when they were mainstreamed in the other countries and how we are being impatient and rushing the big 3 and gov to have it introduced here right now. The difference between your line of argument and mine is that you are concerned about their sales numbers and I am concerned about the quality of product being introduced here. The gov on their part will have to slash the duties and the big 3 on their part will have to limit their profits but the features protecting life and property are a must either they give safe products or no products at all. Big 3 and the gov are just exploiting the current state of affairs here and the pre-requisites to ensure quality products is their responsibility not the end consumer's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    I also see that you very nicely put aside my other examples or HVAC, electricity and network - I simply replaced the automotive incidents with them - care to answer on those?
    Yeah because I didn't deem it applicable to the automotive reality, your reasoning in simple words is their quality of work is poor, people can't diagnose it properly and if they can't do that then why introduce it. Just it will be when immobilizer, abs and air bags are introduced (as standard features not optional). Now lets stick to their reality, yes the chabi ustaads can't repair these things, yet there are facilities that can repair the said issues. Now lets see the probability of occurrence of the said issue, I've a 97 civic and a 2010 city, both their air conditioning is running flawlessly, heck the 97 was abused as well as I mentioned earlier the engine was changed. So just due to the very low probability of a fault that might occur and the chabi ustaads not being able to repair it makes it a valid argument to not have the new features introduced here. Please note that if that rare issue does occur there will always be an option of getting it repaired the right way and not go to the ustaads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    In short - and to make it sound very "marketing lingo" - there is no demand for such features on this product as the market segment who are the users of such cannot make head or tails out of it and neither is it reliably afforded in upkeep.
    Oh okay, I suggest a swift be introduced with these features close to the same price as the current one's. You say that won't be possible I say big 3 and gov are hypocrites and V2 with more features has been launched at a low cost, so its very much possible for the swift to be launched close to its current cost if not close to v2's cost and then see if there is a demand or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    Its a good "selling point"in Pakistan e.g. it would be one more badge on the back of your civic or corolla - you can now have toyota corolla altis SR, cruisetronic safety edition. If its more jingle or acronym - sounds good to sell in Pakistan.
    And that is precisely what my 1st comment in the thread was about, big 3 treating these features as a selling point while they aren't supposed to be, though I don't see how this supports your comment of the Pakistanis being content with what they have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    coming back to ustaad repairing dictating my comment - its the truth, look around you - how many people do you know who pay extra to get a repair done by a qualified person? or repair by manufacturer repair system - 100% people go to ustaad because "sastaa" and agree to the damages built into sastaa kaam - its not me talking big - its reality in Pakistan.

    Im sure you can find other industries with similar stupidity too. You can complain on that too.
    Now you see I don't see what line of argument are you taking throughout your responses. No, 100% of the people don't go to the sasta ustaad. But yes a large majority does, but how do you link that to the features not to be introduced here, that way there never will be a good time to introduce new features because as per you people can't even properly work on EFI cars and yet they've been here for a while now and have been largely successful. You are basing your argument on issues that might occur in a small percentage of cars and the chabi ustaads won't be able to repair them and thus the features should not be introduced here. But those features are here and are being repaired probably not by chabi ustaads but repaired here nonetheless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    and to further take apart your kabuli baxa purchase, did you ever test if its performing correct or was it "chalta hai to set hai". - My customers were the "kabaar gheyrbuxa" daala thaa - museebat kar raha hai - and then I would rebuild it - cost was WAY higher than scrap but it was control spec work. And dont assume stuff never breaks down - even cat powershift transmissions breakdown, they are as large as your whole honda civic and cost more than most houses in Pakistan.
    No I did not test it with tools, but I tested the performance of the motor in different conditions, I looked at its mileage and they are good, the car takes me to monal with 5 adults with AC without a sweat. The car's 0-100 timings is close to official recorded times, the car is not reducing engine oil, transmission oil or water, the car doesn't heat up, the top speed is good enough all indicating that the swap was successful and I don't need to visit you and have my self handed a big fat receipt. B

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    and coming to your prerequisites of getting such safety features.

    make mandates for emmissions and safety for automobiles and apply them - e.g. - no repair work is allowed on the frame of a car once its crashed, (car is not in control spec anymore) - no used safety parts are allowed to be installed (steering columns, air bags etc), no engine swapping allowed which involves cutting structure parts, heavy emmissions be banned - this does not equal slapping a 3 way cat converter on an engine, a 3w cat equipped engine has a very specific ecu to drive it and control the live fuel mix. (well - suzuki tried it on their cars, people are throwing out the cats faster than suzuki can install them - because - yeh faltoo hai, iss se petrol khata hai engine, - same as thermostat valve fear syndrome)

    make mandates for safety on road - e.g. qingqi ricksha have passengers as crumple zone (lol - you want airbags to save you as you hit them and make burger patties of their flesh) - double standards eh?

    When do you see such systems being booted out? - next tuesday? next year? next decade? next century?

    you have wooden structure buses and trucks with heavy cargo on them on rickety suspension and brake systems which have been put out of commission decades ago even in the darkest of the 3rd world countries.
    And now we are onto something, I'll refresh your memory here, your comment was be content with what you have. Now tell me how does it answer my question of how long? Seems like now you are focusing on what the real issue is and I agree with this part here, no coherent auto-policy and road safety laws has led to this state of affairs. Who to blame? I say the monopolistic big 3 and the gov. Since they are doing nothing about it that is why we shouldn't ask for the new technology and we should be content with what we have. Oh please tell me in which part of your mind does that make sense? I asked for the pre-requisites at the consumer's end and you replied with those at the government's end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    please bear in mind that technology pace is such that anything standing still is essentially moving backwards, next you will want to have self driving cars too because vilayat mein hai - apply that self driving car to pindi traffic at current and you will have your answer.
    And once again for the umpteenth time we have your skewed analysis here. Just juggle your memory and remember what features are being discussed. Self driving cars are introduced very recently unlike the features we are talking about and you say that when Pakistanis demand those features they want it "abhi abhi" Let the self driving cars be successfully driven in those vilayti countries first and then we'll see about it. For now lets stay focused on the features under discussion that were introduced in the vilayat few decades ago and which according to you the Pakistanis want abhi abhi.

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    you are still stuck with your kabuli baxa replacement and testing it with 5 adults going to monal in it and no requirement is needed of factory specification (because of big fat receipt) - This is exactly my point, you are the classic definition of the average guy in Pakistan who promotes hack mechanic work because it looks the same from above. - And from not just my experience but any transmission repair tech's experience - using a junkyard Honda automatic gearbox is a LOL moment.

    Im sure you would have seen the people who would buy junkyard suspension items like springs, arms, struts, hubs and even wear items like brake discs, axles etc - come to think of it, they look like the stuff already in your car - they should work right?

    Now lets come back to economics - as Im trying my upteenth time to explain it to you.

    You say that goverment and the 3 manufacturers are in bed together to make money. Im assuming you dont know how the automotive industry works. The safety requirements are set by the "LAW OF THE LAND" the products being sold are to follow it. Not the other way round. - Law of the land can be manipulated and made by "citizens" because they pay the paycheque of the goverment. But lets stop here - we have a ton of non-filer type people in Pakistan so that wont work either - because in classic definition they are criminals.

    A car manufacturer is there to make money - its not Allah wastay work being done. - They will provide the necessary secondary restraint system features when its mandatory for them (with price tacked on) - uptil then its just an upselling item.

    you want to compare a FAW brand vehicle with one of the japanese brands sold in Pakistan and then say - "hey its half price - its a car" this also proves you have no idea of what can dictate quality and pricing. e.g. toyota hiace and mercedes benz sprinter are both vans, one is priced lesser than the other but the other has far more service life than the the first, It also has great manufacturer support to keep it at 100% service specification - In other countries Sprinters are running perfectly with more than 1 million kms on them and are used literally like hired mules, This is the reason why its a success globally,

    Lets take the fate of Sprinters in Pakistan - they were scrapped - Economics or running a car in Pakistan are HEAVILY weighted by "hack mechanics/ustads" Simply put those ustaads couldnt understand to buy new tools for it or learn/buy its repair literature. Owners (as you just proved) just care about more money in pocket - and down goes the spiral. Product goes out of market as its not usable.

    in that light a hiace van costing 4 million which has 500,000 kms service life looks more economical than a 6 million sprinter which can provide 1,500,000 kms service life. The problem is that to get that 1.5 mill life, owner needs to get his head out of lalaland.

    Lets pull this into SRS, ABS and lets also pull in passenger safety cell construction or even pedestrian safety system.

    There are absolutely zero safety laws in Pakistan for automobiles, you see 6 people on motorcycles

    Pakistans Japanesedominated car market poised for new entrants -1646246

    what umbrella of road safety are these guys under? Any code you remember?

    or how about these guys
    Pakistans Japanesedominated car market poised for new entrants -1646247

    care to enlighten us on the regulation of these guys too?

    Pakistans Japanesedominated car market poised for new entrants -1646249

    care to explain which laws of vehicular regulation this truck was under?

    Pakistans Japanesedominated car market poised for new entrants -1646252

    you see - you are a tiny demographic who wants "SRS, ABS, EBD - but at same cost. Its a nice wish I would say - I would have loved to see that too in Pakistan but reality is that it will never happen as the governance is rotten to the core. Surely we agree that transport safety needs to be implemented, this doesnt mean you can have 8 air bags in your lash pash car and poor idiot on qingqi should be made in burger patty.

    lets take a situation to a corolla and add on features like.

    ABS
    EBD
    8xairbags - locked to car - require new placements as required with new controller
    ECU - locked to car - require factory tools to reset.
    2 way smart key - locked to car - only available from manufacturer

    you think the (more expensive) corolla sales will continue after a few owners face nightmarishly expensive bills (compared to ustaad) when they lose the key or smash the car and blow its bags or fry the ECU? - lol, it will suddenly become the "fektary faalt" car. In the end 99% of the average people who buy the product will be gravitating towards the tried and tested and sastaa + mayaari.

    Safety mandates also mean you wont be able to hammer or weld patches to the structure of your car as it cannot be ensured it is actually safe after that (its called control specification) - straightened out crumple zones are like no crumple zones - after you have been burned by the airbag's gun powder the car will proceed to decapitate you as it folds into itself due to weak and incorrect repaired structure. (meaning the used car salesman wont be able to do business as "jenyan")

    As I mentioned a few posts ago - learn how to make bricks then make a wall.

    MEANING.

    dont try to copy what you see elsewhere, your structures are either non-existant or are unique in every way, applying "gora, japani, malayeeshea, china" hot fixes wont work unless you correct your core issues yourself.

    Please dont try to drag - cars driven gently live forever and the "RARE" repairs dont matter. Million dollar equipment also fails.

    You also did not explain to me on the electricity and HVAC question I pointed, its demographic is colossally huge compared to car owners.
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    please also answer my query for repairing the old toyota A340E automatic
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    another example - that nearly all of us (who are somehow linked to data or telco networks) have seen in Pakistan.


    Pakistans Japanesedominated car market poised for new entrants -1646581

    the only difference is that when in Pakistan the picture on the left called "bad cable" is done as brand new commissioned "kwaltee wala kaam" by "tasalleebaksh lektrishann"

    the difference of costing between the left and right pictures is about 4 times. - the bad cable picture would be working - but would you be willing to pay money for that mess? - In classic definition NO

    but in reality - its done everyday in Pakistan - because, sastaa hai bhai aur chalta hai.

    a structured job would require cable managers to be installed, ladder rails and all other doo daas - cost $$$, performance A1, standardisation - YES.

    bad cabling - cable managers = hooks from hardware di hatti, sutlee (sootar) pa packet (to use as cable ties), rainbow coloured cables because they are found easily in scrap market., cost -$, performance = chaaloo, standardisation = lektrishann marka ishtandurr.


    Replace telco with anything automotive and you have your answer to make this post relevant to automobiles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    another example - that nearly all of us (who are somehow linked to data or telco networks) have seen in Pakistan.

    pakistans japanesedominated car market poised for new entrants -1646562

    the only difference is that when in Pakistan the picture on the left called "bad cable" is done as brand new commissioned "kwaltee wala kaam" by "tasalleebaksh lektrishann"

    the difference of costing between the left and right pictures is about 4 times. - the bad cable picture would be working - but would you be willing to pay money for that mess? - In classic definition NO

    but in reality - its done everyday in Pakistan - because, sastaa hai bhai aur chalta hai.

    a structured job would require cable managers to be installed, ladder rails and all other doo daas - cost $$$, performance A1, standardisation - YES.

    bad cabling - cable managers = hooks from hardware di hatti, sutlee (sootar) pa packet (to use as cable ties), rainbow coloured cables because they are found easily in scrap market., cost -$, performance = chaaloo, standardisation = lektrishann marka ishtandurr.


    Replace telco with anything automotive and you have your answer to make this post relevant to automobiles.
    Pic not visible

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    I have changed the picture source, its now uploaded to PW. - should be visible.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    I have changed the picture source, its now uploaded to PW. - should be visible.
    Showing now , i have tried to go for the solution on the right side. Regarding wiring on my project car , till this day have not found any ''lectrishaaan'' willing to do it without nitto tape. Ended up doing it myself

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    Quote Originally Posted by wmblhr View Post
    Showing now , i have tried to go for the solution on the right side. Regarding wiring on my project car , till this day have not found any ''lectrishaaan'' willing to do it without nitto tape. Ended up doing it myself
    my point to post it here was to explain an issue, buying an acronym or wishing for stuff doesnt work, I see demands for ABS, EBD, SRS, VSC, ESP, etc etc to be implemented in cars because its been ages since they came into existance.

    My point was that - what have we done to accept it? aka bandarr ke haath mein adrak problem.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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