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Thread: the CVT blog on PW

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    Default the CVT blog on PW

    I came across the blog for the CVT gearbox, and how Pakistan should accept it and all the rainbows and fairies that come attached with it.

    a few things that caught my eye was - the writer claims it has a rubber belt in it, till date I have not seen any CVT unit with a rubber belt unless it was a drill press or in a scooty.

    secondly - speaking of CVT gearbox in Pakistan, Pakistan is still 40 or 50 years behind in transport and vehicles, The most common repair of any kind of old shifting automatic gearbox is to "replace the whole gearbox" mainly because of two reasons, the local mechanics have a big shortcoming of repairing these, the lack of parts availability in Pakistan for this repair and the cost - for an average Pakistani car owner - "kaabli (whatever that means) to sasta hai - aap kyun zyada paisay maang rahe hain" - regardless of the fact that it was a rebuilt unit with new frictions, seal set and also rebuilt torque converter. I did have some customers for these gearboxes and almost everyone of them either knew the value of the item or considered it as an operating cost with a booked result.

    CVT units are supplied as fit and use till break assemblies from the manufacturer - this means that in any case the entire gearbox requires replacement with a brand new one. If one inquires about its cost they will be very badly shocked to find its price (worse if its an orphan car bought from auction outside of Pakistan)

    Another factor to put in here is the average lifespan of a vehicle in Pakistan, a car is never written off in Pakistan it is used till the only thing remaining is some sheet metal and some sort of engine driving it on 4 wheels.

    Im not writing this of 10 years ago, even on my recent visit to Pakistan I met a few old acquaintances who used to work like me, and the situation in this regard is a bit worse than before.

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    I will not question the ability of writer. as am not a transmission repair guy. however ........... I have some questions for the highlighted part since day it is posted,

    CVT with Gear Ratio ?? if its a CVT how to determine ratios ?


    the CVT blog on PW -1605098
    - www.crackwheels.com - A skilled Dictator is much more beneficial to Country......than a Democracy of Ignorant people

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    about the reliable and easy to maintain - I want to question that. The usual holding force for the pulleys in a CVT box is monumental pump pressure, we are talking more than 700 psi of line pressure to hold the variator. It also does not have any repair parts available, so I have no idea where the easy to maintain bit comes from.

    e.g. no matter if you burn the reverse or damage the variator, your repair price is fixed at buying a new transmission. Its not cheap. - Almost all manufacturers recommend that the fluid in the gearbox is filled for life or has some super high mileage change interval which has been experienced before to burn out autos.

    It also has a weird drive, its like a boat, in a boat you push the throttles full and wait for the thing to build momentum thats exactly what a CVT is doing too, it cannot apply all the maximum power from the engine through itself. You get used to it but the used to requires a radio or CD or a passenger to talk to otherwise you get irritated.
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    Going a bit off topic, pakwheels blogs are random posts, their is no proof reading and filled with mistakes. Mostly ideas from posts and fan boy fantasies. They are not reliable. No back ground checks are done
    Get over the fact that Xli lacks power windows, Its an Xli because it lacks thoose features or else it would be a Gli or an Altis if had all the goodies.

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    You have to realize the blogs are written by the same kind of enthusiasts as folks who post here regularly. These guys are not going out there and test driving everything before writing about it, most of it comes from a quick wiki skimp and taking liberties with what other professional car reviewers have published. On desi auto sites, every blogger you see will say he eats, breathes and farts cars.. no joke.

    so take everything that is written on the interwebs with a generous helping of iodine.

    BUT regardless of the misinformation, what you are saying is wrong as well. Just because Pakistan is decades behind other countries in automotive innovation and providing adequate servicing for modern technologies does not mean that we do not deserve it either. If nobody buys CVT we will never have that technology transfer to our service industry. CVT is a good move forward and people should be encouraged to buy it. Countries move forward when the populace is willing to embrace change.

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    embracing change can only happen if a whole system of change is implemented. Not just a want of "I want this fancy technology because its new"

    e.g. public transport problem requires a correct change like mass transit buses or rail not qingqi ricksha made into a bus.

    OR

    we see everyone wanting a change to some global clean air standard, yet we see cat converters being chopped out, hollowed out because "naya bohot mehenga hai" OR - iss ka faida kya jab phir masla hona hai - OR - I didnt get it with the swapped engine I put here.

    change comes at a cost and takes a monumental effort to achieve, even trying to copy something requires true solid effort.

    I see you claim its a good move forward and people should be encouraged to buy it, do you have an answer for the poor bloke whose Rs 400,000/- transmission is damaged and no-one can repair it.
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    this is a message to the PW admin team infact, please check the blogs before they are posted up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy_jenkins View Post
    You have to realize the blogs are written by the same kind of enthusiasts as folks who post here regularly. These guys are not going out there and test driving everything before writing about it, most of it comes from a quick wiki skimp and taking liberties with what other professional car reviewers have published. On desi auto sites, every blogger you see will say he eats, breathes and farts cars.. no joke.

    so take everything that is written on the interwebs with a generous helping of iodine.

    BUT regardless of the misinformation, what you are saying is wrong as well. Just because Pakistan is decades behind other countries in automotive innovation and providing adequate servicing for modern technologies does not mean that we do not deserve it either. If nobody buys CVT we will never have that technology transfer to our service industry. CVT is a good move forward and people should be encouraged to buy it. Countries move forward when the populace is willing to embrace change.
    No offense to you brother, but with limited capacity of the Pakistani mind people tend to trust what is published on the pakwheels blog. Considering pakwheels legitimate. Which is not the case
    Get over the fact that Xli lacks power windows, Its an Xli because it lacks thoose features or else it would be a Gli or an Altis if had all the goodies.

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    I once tried to tell a mods about mistakes in pakwheels blog with all correction the mod never bother to reply

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    I see you claim its a good move forward and people should be encouraged to buy it, do you have an answer for the poor bloke whose Rs 400,000/- transmission is damaged and no-one can repair it.
    In your original post and in this one, this particular point seems to be your argument i.e Dont try it because if it breaks its money down the drain.

    By your logic one shouldn't buy a car as well since in Pakistan high probability it will be stolen (I think there is already a guy here who is so scared he keeps his ride parked in his garage) or dont go outside you might get hit by car. Makes no sense, the point is these things happen, when you buy something it will break some day and unless you are saying that CVT will 100% of the time break down in a matter of 3-4 years then you cannot hold this archaic argument against it and keep beating the "be afraid" drum. It will break and the person will either pay for it or dump it and move on because that is what people do.

    It has to do with the collective mindset of a society and what standards you set for yourself, our neighbour is producing mercs and audis and we are too afraid to even have a standard tech in our cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy_jenkins View Post
    In your original post and in this one, this particular point seems to be your argument i.e Dont try it because if it breaks its money down the drain.

    By your logic one shouldn't buy a car as well since in Pakistan high probability it will be stolen (I think there is already a guy here who is so scared he keeps his ride parked in his garage) or dont go outside you might get hit by car. Makes no sense, the point is these things happen, when you buy something it will break some day and unless you are saying that CVT will 100% of the time break down in a matter of 3-4 years then you cannot hold this archaic argument against it and keep beating the "be afraid" drum. It will break and the person will either pay for it or dump it and move on because that is what people do.

    It has to do with the collective mindset of a society and what standards you set for yourself, our neighbour is producing mercs and audis and we are too afraid to even have a standard tech in our cars.
    Dont try to oversimplify a given point, and there is more to the world than your neighbor, but before comparison one should look at oneself and then be their own critic, yes your neighbor is making MB - why could not Pakistan provide a favorable position of investment? (thats another story) - your own three little tiny assembly lines cannot even make enough for local purchase demands.

    My reasoning not to waste money on such money pits is coming exactly what you want - which is progress. It makes no sense to buy something that has no tech support or service, this doesnt make economical sense in any book - which according to progress definition you take one step forwards and two steps backwards.

    A car is a large purchase, it has a rough life and its EOL in Pakistan is not 5 or 7 years (global standards). your average CVT lifespan is between 100-150K if everything is fine n dandy according to the manufacturer. In Pakistan it would be expected to work for the next 500K. Vehicles for such markets are out there, a vehicle with CVT is not one of those.

    another short example - everyone is busy buying the scrapped EPS assemblies and installing it in everything they can lay their tools on. A very simple task of troubleshooting the EPS is met with "deer in headlights" look. The answer 100% of the times is doosra daaldo. Its ok on an item that costs less than 5K used and doesnt leave you stranded (you can turn the wheel without assist) - but not for an expensive transmission that will render the car immovable under its own power.
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    JDM CVT owners while reading this: " new gearbox costs 400k? No it doesn't 10k from Shershah lel yolo. BeeTeeDubs, clean JDM with genuine auction sheet never breaks down, k?"
    _ 22 km/l from '03 VTi automatic, with plenty of room for improvement
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    I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    Dont try to oversimplify a given point, and there is more to the world than your neighbor, but before comparison one should look at oneself and then be their own critic, yes your neighbor is making MB - why could not Pakistan provide a favorable position of investment? (thats another story) - your own three little tiny assembly lines cannot even make enough for local purchase demands.

    My reasoning not to waste money on such money pits is coming exactly what you want - which is progress. It makes no sense to buy something that has no tech support or service, this doesnt make economical sense in any book - which according to progress definition you take one step forwards and two steps backwards.

    A car is a large purchase, it has a rough life and its EOL in Pakistan is not 5 or 7 years (global standards). your average CVT lifespan is between 100-150K if everything is fine n dandy according to the manufacturer. In Pakistan it would be expected to work for the next 500K. Vehicles for such markets are out there, a vehicle with CVT is not one of those.

    another short example - everyone is busy buying the scrapped EPS assemblies and installing it in everything they can lay their tools on. A very simple task of troubleshooting the EPS is met with "deer in headlights" look. The answer 100% of the times is doosra daaldo. Its ok on an item that costs less than 5K used and doesnt leave you stranded (you can turn the wheel without assist) - but not for an expensive transmission that will render the car immovable under its own power.
    <..If everything seems under control, U r not going fast enough..>

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    Quote Originally Posted by saboor73 View Post
    I once tried to tell a mods about mistakes in pakwheels blog with all correction the mod never bother to reply
    PW blogs are run by PW editorial board and not controlled by MODS and its a separate entity and has nothing to do with forums. I will contact editorial board to look into this thread. Thanks
    Pakwheels on the MAP; http://bit.ly/ZVyXcZ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    .......
    On the contrary you are complicating a very simple point because of your personal bias not just against CVT but I believe towards auto trannies in general, which is fine but I just dont think you can make a case for the rest of the country to live under a rock based on what repair costs they may or may not have to bear in the future.

    This industry needs to move forward and bring to pakistanis the same technologies that people everywhere else enjoy. Not everyone else in pakistan can afford it and that is fine but for those that can they should buy cvt vehicles. Enthusiasts who like to drag race with "corollas" well they can keep the manual shticks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy_jenkins View Post
    On the contrary you are complicating a very simple point because of your personal bias not just against CVT but I believe towards auto trannies in general, which is fine but I just dont think you can make a case for the rest of the country to live under a rock based on what repair costs they may or may not have to bear in the future.

    This industry needs to move forward and bring to pakistanis the same technologies that people everywhere else enjoy. Not everyone else in pakistan can afford it and that is fine but for those that can they should buy cvt vehicles. Enthusiasts who like to drag race with "corollas" well they can keep the manual shticks.
    my personal bias?

    umm - to use a technology you need an infrastructure and system first, e.g. you can try to use LED street lamps in your neighborhood, they are a failure in Pakistan due to lack of electricity supply.

    above example, you are provided with the technology but you have no system to support it.

    chicken n egg situation dont you think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    my personal bias?

    umm - to use a technology you need an infrastructure and system first, e.g. you can try to use LED street lamps in your neighborhood, they are a failure in Pakistan due to lack of electricity supply.

    above example, you are provided with the technology but you have no system to support it.

    chicken n egg situation dont you think?
    You will never get that infrastructure if there isn't a market so definitely chicken n egg but my point is still the same, the market only moves forward if you give the consumer options, it forces manufacturers to compete which leads to innovation and improvement in the technologies being offered. Pakistan's automotive industry has been absolutely stagnant for years now and big part of the reason is our inclination to stay in our bubbles.

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    zulfiqar u rock
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy_jenkins View Post
    You will never get that infrastructure if there isn't a market so definitely chicken n egg but my point is still the same, the market only moves forward if you give the consumer options, it forces manufacturers to compete which leads to innovation and improvement in the technologies being offered. Pakistan's automotive industry has been absolutely stagnant for years now and big part of the reason is our inclination to stay in our bubbles.

    I think you need to look at what is around you, what competition are you speaking of? and what infrastructure development, I gave you an example of electricity supply - the oldest of it, do you have it running sweet to implement its further "modern technology"

    lets take railway - its been stagnant since it was handed to Pakistan, you think that just importing a few bombardier coaches will fix this issue and everyone should jump on board.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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