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Thread: Self Tunning - Khyber G-10 (Plugs, valve clearance, spark gap etc)

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    Default Self Tuning - Khyber G-10 (Plugs, valve clearance, spark gap etc)

    Salam

    dear members/experts

    I own a khyber 1996. Recently overhauled its engine completely at home by myself except the mechanist part. It has its first oil change at 1100Km yesterday and i am planning to tune it. I have following query for the learned members/experts

    Q.1. recommended spark plugs for khyber g-10 on CNG
    Q.2. Recommended spark plug gap?
    Q.3. Recommended tappet setting Hot/cold?
    Q.4. Running was on petrol with Caltex Havoline formula and now i have switched to CNG with Shell helix HX7 10-40W (synthetic) , is shell HX7 ok?

    What else should i do or check to get max output and efficiency from my g-10?

    regards


    after-note: In addition to the above queries, this thread also contains info on carburetor, AC, electrical, cooling system, brakes & gear issues related to khyber G-10.

    Special thanks to following experts :
    Xulfiqar, Fas133, Margallar, Ahsanzs, wasay_Ahmad, Xplorer, jz, Daniyal
    for their valuable contributions and last but not least
    I am greatful to Cracked for keeping this thread alive by
    raising all the queries/question.


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    by the STAR thing your mechanic means the bewel gears in the differential part of your transaxle (gear box of a front wheel drive). They are there to transfer power in all the gears so why only 4th and 5th gear is noisy? Do you feel a jerk in lower gears when you leave the accelerator pedal every time and a jerk when you press it again a quickly?

    The noise should also vanish as you reduce or remove the power from the gears without disengaging the clutch, i.e., it will goonj only when you press the accelerator and a little in engine braking...

    There are big Shims(washers) in the differential bewel gears. For reducing the extra gap in the gears, shims are replaced with thicker ones. The thickness is selected by measuring the gap in the bewel gears by fuse wire technique. I hope you find the shims and that too with requires thickness.

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    long story short,should i get it repaired??? what shoould be repaired and how much would be estimated cost???
    n if repairing is only way out,is repairing gonna be reliable??? and while on it,how can i check clutch and pressure plate condition so that if they need replacing,i can get them changed all togther?
    REAL men drive manual cars!

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    today installed a strut bar connecting the 2 lower arms suspension.it brought chasis back to its position. now will weld the chasis from where it cracked.
    the strut was actually a thick metal plate made by my suspension wala in rs 800

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    you need a proper repair - when the welding is done the car should be lifted evenly on all corners - additional bracing needs to be done also at this weld point and the bulkhead checked for stress cracks and the shock towers too, if its tearing off easily your cars body structure is flexing too much, its probably very weak now, you might want to look into getting a brace made for this, that brace would be from the front arm mounts to the floor with thick washers - its used in high speed cars

    To preserve you need to either make some body cavity wax or buy some if you can actually find it - It is applied with a long wand type applicator that goes inside these places, There are holes provided for this, then coat with underseal.
    Xulfiqar: Thanks for the reply , I have been searching over the internet to try to find what you meant by the brace from the front arm mount to the floor, also from your experience let us know a capable person to go to for getting this done.


    Wanted to discuss some serious problems with my suspension and then ask for your advice and the capable person to go to fix this to factory specs.


    I spent scores of thousands of rupees last year but I never got the results. I want to restore the suspension to atleast factory specs if a performance upgrade is not possible in khyber to get results that of a new car.


    My car's front tires have all of these red marked spaced mis aligned as seen in any other car with more vertical and horizontal distance (indicated by the arrows in the below pics).


    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103301

    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103302



    My car's suspension also keeps cracking from the area marked by red lines in the below picture. These are visible stress fractures/cracks and not due to rusting or anything and the rust develops after the area is cracked and paint is gone.

    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103260


    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103261


    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103263

    Another problem is with the Muqqian (i dont know if there are called Lower arm joints or not) but all mechanics say they are out of place/alignment. Even the alignment guys say they are not able to bring the tires in the centre due to these. Tell me where I can get them fixed with proper alingment or is it possible to get these welded new as I saw on internet that people who rally on rocks often get these broken on their jeeps and get new welded with alignment. Once the car was banged against a side wall made of blocks and the tire collided with it, maybe that messed up the alignment

    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103268
    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103262
    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103264


    Also the welder once changed this gantory (marked) and now when I ask the mechanic why does my engine foundation keeps breaking, he says that since gantory and consequently foundation mount is out of alignment / place it breaks the engine foundation.
    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103266
    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1103276



    Even few months back I bought original malaysian KYB shocks, some brand of new springs, suspension bushes, struts mounts etc and before that even got new lower control arms, kaabli stearing and yes those parts were installed in the car infront of my eyes but in the end I never got satisfied as mechanic did not do a good job or I was robbed.

    When car goes in a khadda (poth hole) it bounces back, looses traction and the rear sways to the right. The front bounces and moves to left or right especially when the car goes through the cat eyes (three rows of large size cat eyes - placed every where in Karachi and especially Khyaban-e-Ittehad)

    To cut it short, can you please tell me where to get all of these problems solved and get the suspension in perfect condition:

    1) I want to get the muqqian in perfect place / alignment.
    2) I am willing to change the wheel hubs, control arms, shocks or anything to get the suspension in perfect position like that of a new car or better yet in a respectable condition but please refer me to a capable denter/mechanic who can do this since the car needs both a denting and a suspension job.

    Xulfiqar its a humble request to you to refer this case to a trusted person who can diagnose my car properly and fix these denting / suspension problems in my car so I can have piece of mind as I cannot afford to buy a new car and for now can only afford repairs in this car and I plan to keep it and I spent more than 1 lac on this car last year but it is in this shape as you see in the pictures
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    I am really impress with your Photography, just like a professional. Can you please mention the model/ year of your car, seems like very old one. First I suggest you to not spend more amount on these repairs, try to sold it and find some better used car as per your budget.
    Even if you are interested in proper repair then you should visit a denter who is having hydraulic lifter same as in the washing stations, in this case car can be seen from the bottom and can be fixed for proper alignment.
    I am in Islamabad so don't know for Karachi.
    I am also having Khyber 96 model, spent a lot of money but now my car is in better shape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidik View Post
    I am really impress with your Photography, just like a professional. Can you please mention the model/ year of your car, seems like very old one. First I suggest you to not spend more amount on these repairs, try to sold it and find some better used car as per your budget.
    Even if you are interested in proper repair then you should visit a denter who is having hydraulic lifter same as in the washing stations, in this case car can be seen from the bottom and can be fixed for proper alignment.
    I am in Islamabad so don't know for Karachi.
    I am also having Khyber 96 model, spent a lot of money but now my car is in better shape.
    Its a 1997 Khyber G10 with 300,000+ K on the odo

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoizIrfan View Post
    today installed a strut bar connecting the 2 lower arms suspension.it brought chasis back to its position. now will weld the chasis from where it cracked.
    the strut was actually a thick metal plate made by my suspension wala in rs 800
    Please post pictures

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracked View Post
    long story short,should i get it repaired??? what shoould be repaired and how much would be estimated cost???
    n if repairing is only way out,is repairing gonna be reliable??? and while on it,how can i check clutch and pressure plate condition so that if they need replacing,i can get them changed all togther?
    Only if you find the shims for different thicknesses. The thickness will be looked in the table against the gap measures from the star gear assembly. Do you have the workshop manual for khyber? You can find the complete procedure for it in there. I hope you find someone who do it by the book.
    I will suggest you to find a less used star gear assembly (differential part) untouched and with gap within the limits.

    I will change the clutch plate if i will be changing it in a year. Same for pressure plate. Change the clutch bearing as it usually jams first and wears the pressure plate spring fingers...

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    @ siraj
    Too much rust. I will not go for repairing it and spend a lot to be still unsatisfied...

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    Default help needed

    Quote Originally Posted by metalhead View Post
    @ siraj
    Too much rust. I will not go for repairing it and spend a lot to be still unsatisfied...
    Guys restoring the ride is the only option for me, please give details of someone who can do this inlight of the problems I have written inthe post above.

    Also as mentioned in the above post, the car jumps on a bump in the road or when goes over cat eyes and loud thud and vibration in the steering wheel is observed when it goes in a "depression / Khadda / poth hole", this effect is corrected in alignment but comes back within 2-3 weeks again. While alignment for other people last for 6-8 months why do I loose this effect in such a short time and how can I fix it?

    (Please keep in mind I have new shocks of KYB and new lower arms / chimtas installed last year plus all bushing changes and of balance rod / stabilizer bar too)

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    Salaam all,

    I am not happy with my current engine's performance. Well by performance I mean its acceleration and top speed on CNG. The engine was changed about 8 months back. It wasn't a complete engine change but a partial one. The upper body of the engine was changed the one with cylinders and head. Before that my car's top speed on CNG was about 140-145 km/h on a highway. Now no matter how much I push it I can only get it upto 120 km/h and that too barely. 1-100 km/h isn't that fast as well haven't checked it but I'll let you guys know. I did achieved 140 km/h on petrol.

    Just to point out my khyber does 177 km in full cylinder in city. Its a 55L cylinder and max capacity is somewhere around 8.3 to 8.6 kg i believe. So due to that 177 km mileage i believe that my engine is good.

    Anyways my mechanic suggested to get venturi its something added in the tapit cover I believe. My question is does it affects the consumption of the car? What is good 1-100 km/h timing for khyber?

    Your help will be much appreciated.

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    okay i have another problem that started to surface today. when i press brake on speeds around 60-80,if i push break paddle slowly,there is slight vibration in brake paddle and seems like vibration happens on right side.if i push hard brake,no vibration is felt..any ideas? ill get it checkeed though soon but still would like to know the reason before goin to mechanic
    REAL men drive manual cars!

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    Default Petrol Avg

    As CNG is no more available, I am driving my Suzuki Khyber on petrol from last couple of days.
    It is too heavy on petrol. Drinks 500 Rs petrol daily. My daily drive is around 28 Km. Means 28Km/4.9L, means 5.7 Km/L.
    I am using electronic pump in my car, can this be the reason?
    The reason for removing its mechanical pump was that even on CNG, the pump kept working and as a result the diaphragm got damaged. The electronic pump works only when the switch is on petrol, otherwise no current is given to it.
    What are other measures which can be adopted to improve its mileage on petrol.
    "The more we sweat in peace, the less we bleed in war"

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    @speedster
    I was having the same mileage (with black smoke at exhaust pipe) when converted on petrol from CNG so i opened up the carb. and cleaned it using carb. Cleaner (cost Rs.150) and also using carburetor repair kit cost (Rs.800) replaced all the jets, seals and some other stuff that came with the kit and now its giving me 12Km / L in city driving.

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    Very Interesting, while I know its an Aisam Barell II carbeurator in Khyber, where did you get the CARB repair kit and that too in 800, here in Karachi even the Kabuli butterfly inside the carb costs around 2000 to 2500 to replace (maybe I am the only one who got looted )

    Any ideas where can we get this repair kit in Karachi, i am really interested to do this DIY, my carb desperately needs an overhaul.

    Also just a humble suggestion, next time if any one overhalls the AISAM barell II carb, they should watch this video on youtube before. It containing 10 parts showing detailed overhaul of a Aisam barell II carb by a carb specilist. Also its a good idea to let the metal parts of a carb to boil in citric acid solution for half an hour or so to remove all the varnish and other dirt

    Quote Originally Posted by fas133 View Post
    @speedster
    I was having the same mileage (with black smoke at exhaust pipe) when converted on petrol from CNG so i opened up the carb. and cleaned it using carb. Cleaner (cost Rs.150) and also using carburetor repair kit cost (Rs.800) replaced all the jets, seals and some other stuff that came with the kit and now its giving me 12Km / L in city driving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    Very Interesting, while I know its an Aisam Barell II carbeurator in Khyber, where did you get the CARB repair kit and that too in 800, here in Karachi even the Kabuli butterfly inside the carb costs around 2000 to 2500 to replace (maybe I am the only one who got looted )

    Any ideas where can we get this repair kit in Karachi, i am really interested to do this DIY, my carb desperately needs an overhaul.

    Also just a humble suggestion, next time if any one overhalls the AISAM barell II carb, they should watch this video on youtube before. It containing 10 parts showing detailed overhaul of a Aisam barell II carb by a carb specilist. Also its a good idea to let the metal parts of a carb to boil in citric acid solution for half an hour or so to remove all the varnish and other dirt
    I bought the same Carb repairing kit 4,5 years ago. At that time its price was 450 Rs and it was available at Waseem Autos and Kiyani Autos Rawalpindi. The kit contains very small jets, springs and other parts. I am sure it will be available in Karachi. Members from Karachi can help you with that.
    "The more we sweat in peace, the less we bleed in war"

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    @siraj_7
    I have added this rod connecting the lower arms of suspension which brought back the chassis to its position.

    Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1107124Self Tunning  Khyber G10 Plugs valve clearance spark gap etc -1107125
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    Wanted to discuss some serious problems with my suspension and then ask for your advice and the capable person to go to fix this to factory specs.
    One thing is to be kept in mind. The design life of passenger car is 7 years (source). Mostly the car can give you longer service life even if poorly kept, but take note: after the design life, nothing happens to the mechanicals. They can always be replaced. The main problem is that the structure becomes weak. This results in all sorts of issues such as the holders for mechanical parts not being in place (resulting in greater wear), greater chassis flex contributing to poor handling and as a result increased driver fatigue, making the roads overall more hazardous.As per my previous experience (kept many old cars), your problems cannot be solved by spending ANY amount of money on the car. It has served its useful life and for the betterment of the society it should be taken off the roads. But since here there is no fitness standard and ever decreasing purchasing power, most people are forced to keep using out of date and unfit vehicles. [Ever notice how developed countries like Japan and England force older cars off the road by increasing tax/insurance on older vehicles or by simply conducting roadworthiness (fitness) tests. This way their entire society is able to benefit from the improvements in e.g stopping distance, driver & passenger comfort, lighting, fuel economy etc. whereas us people are seeing the same Mazda 323 black taxi our entire lives.] Unfortunately, many people here face the same dilemma.Now we see one by one:
    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    I spent scores of thousands of rupees last year but I never got the results. I want to restore the suspension to atleast factory specs if a performance upgrade is not possible in khyber to get results that of a new car.
    Tip: Repair only as much as barely necessary. Old car is like a grave. No matter how much you invest into it no life will come out of it. Performance upgrade as you say is done to something which is already in pristine condition. E.g you buy a new car and fit it with chassis stiffeners etc. An old car will neither go to zero-meter condition neither better than that (unless it is a classic and one would be willing to invest too much for it). I have many bitter experiences of my own. That's why telling you this.
    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    My car's front tires have all of these red marked spaced mis aligned as seen in any other car with more vertical and horizontal distance (indicated by the arrows in the below pics).
    Mainly because the chassis has grown weaker. The strut tower mount and control arm mount (mukki) are not in their place. This is incurable. (I mean you can cure it but you should spend on the car considering its market value).
    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    My car's suspension also keeps cracking from the area marked by red lines in the below picture. These are visible stress fractures/cracks and not due to rusting or anything and the rust develops after the area is cracked and paint is gone.
    Again, this cannot be repaired unless you go for it on a time-to-time basis. Since the entire chassis has grown weak, once you strengthen one part by superimposing additional metal over it, it will immediately begin to crack in another place. Just have a little repair done whenever the need arises. Trying to get it done all in one go would not only go futile, it will also give the impression to the denter that you are an easy customer. This way he/she will start charging you more (which you won't want to happen at all). Again, as much repair as needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    Another problem is with the Muqqian (i dont know if there are called Lower arm joints or not) but all mechanics say they are out of place/alignment. Even the alignment guys say they are not able to bring the tires in the centre due to these. Tell me where I can get them fixed with proper alingment or is it possible to get these welded new as I saw on internet that people who rally on rocks often get these broken on their jeeps and get new welded with alignment. Once the car was banged against a side wall made of blocks and the tire collided with it, maybe that messed up the alignment
    I faced the same problem. Many denters told me the mukkian are not in place. Many told me they are. The repair system in Pakistan means that there are no drawings, diagram or any other thing to refer from. How do they say it is not in place? Do they measure it? If they measure it what is the standard? Most of the time it is just a ploy to create more FUD and extract some money out of you. In my case, I went to a fellow Pakwheeler and we measured his car which had never been repaired in this region and found out that the centre-to-centre between bolt to bolt was 4 mm off. Means my car was measuring 742 mm and his was 738 mm.
    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    Also the welder once changed this gantory (marked) and now when I ask the mechanic why does my engine foundation keeps breaking, he says that since gantory and consequently foundation mount is out of alignment / place it breaks the engine foundation.
    Front girder (locally called gatri) is usually the first to rust (if the rear wheel arches don't happen before it) because of leaking radiator. Most of the times the replacement 'gatri' is not fitted in the proper manner, and the fitting of engine mount becomes off by ~2 mm or so, which is enough to cause premature wear of engine foundations in already rough 3-cyl engines. Given that as time passes, the mounts you can buy get poorer and poorer in quality, you see bills running up.
    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    Even few months back I bought original malaysian KYB shocks, some brand of new springs, suspension bushes, struts mounts etc and before that even got new lower control arms, kaabli stearing and yes those parts were installed in the car infront of my eyes but in the end I never got satisfied as mechanic did not do a good job or I was robbed.
    Again, spending this much on old cars is never justified. No matter how much you spend on this vehicle now, it will never restore to what it was like in 1997
    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    When car goes in a khadda (poth hole) it bounces back, looses traction and the rear sways to the right. The front bounces and moves to left or right especially when the car goes through the cat eyes (three rows of large size cat eyes - placed every where in Karachi and especially Khyaban-e-Ittehad)
    The springs you bought are not perfectly agreeing with each other nor with the car. Rather than buying springs on the basis of specification (free length and spring rate), here we buy them like this: 5-kari, 6-kari, 7-kari, gari kitni oonchi karni hai ji? Even if on the packing of springs all these parameters are mentioned (if you buy branded BDL springs from Kashmir automobile in Plaza - they have a branch in Lahore too, they have all this info for all models of their springs), you never know what spec to get for your car because the culture is to depend upon ustaads rather than repair manuals. You can never find a repair manual for any car. And most of our cars aren't even contemporary so no luck on the internet also.Also, there is a lot of chassis flex. Khyber and Cultus lack much chassis rigidity by design. Add the effects of ultra thin (read: out of spec) material our local assemblers use, 300k km of bumping in potholes and patchwork repair by local ustaad denters with steel sheet of specification unknown, the car is flexing like an old charpoy.
    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    To cut it short, can you please tell me where to get all of these problems solved and get the suspension in perfect condition:1) I want to get the muqqian in perfect place / alignment.2) I am willing to change the wheel hubs, control arms, shocks or anything to get the suspension in perfect position like that of a new car or better yet in a respectable condition but please refer me to a capable denter/mechanic who can do this since the car needs both a denting and a suspension job.Xulfiqar its a humble request to you to refer this case to a trusted person who can diagnose my car properly and fix these denting / suspension problems in my car so I can have piece of mind as I cannot afford to buy a new car and for now can only afford repairs in this car and I plan to keep it and I spent more than 1 lac on this car last year but it is in this shape as you see in the pictures
    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    Guys restoring the ride is the only option for me, please give details of someone who can do this inlight of the problems I have written inthe post above.Also as mentioned in the above post, the car jumps on a bump in the road or when goes over cat eyes and loud thud and vibration in the steering wheel is observed when it goes in a "depression / Khadda / poth hole", this effect is corrected in alignment but comes back within 2-3 weeks again. While alignment for other people last for 6-8 months why do I loose this effect in such a short time and how can I fix it? (Please keep in mind I have new shocks of KYB and new lower arms / chimtas installed last year plus all bushing changes and of balance rod / stabilizer bar too)
    To cut it short,1) the mukkian/gatri etc. will never come in perfect alignment. Why? Because there is no reference you can compare to. How will you know they are in line in the first place?2) Do not change the wheel hubs or the other many things you mentioned. It will be a waste of money with little improvement. Only replace something if it is really worn out.Once you say you have everything new. Next you say it needs a suspension job. What does this mean? The photographs show that body work indeed needs to be done. I'll PM you contacts of one or two denters for this.Now repair work that you say arises for you in 2-3 weeks. Given you've driven your car 300k km in 15 years, means that your weekly running is about 385 km. This means you lose the settings in 1000 km. It could depend on your driving style (older cars should be driven much more carefully) and also may be the others you are referencing drive 1000 km in 6 months (you never know).Again, just like all other Pakistanis, you are also having difficulty upgrading to a more recent car. You could sell this one and use the amount for down payment of a cultus or the new EFI mehran. You will not save any money if you keep spending on this car like you intend to. Even if you spend gazillions on it, it will still remain beat up. Repeat: Just get the bare minimum done to it, this way you'll save the money which would come in useful in buying a more recent car.Sorry for disappointing you, but the time has come to move on. Save your money towards the future instead of focusing on something by-gone.EDIT: An example for the underbody brace can be found here: Suzuki Swift (1989 - 1994) Front Lower Bar / Front Member Brace - Ultra Racing Product Catalog. It is currently in fashion here and any good denter would make it for you in PKR 800-1200 out of GI (plumbing) pipe. If you want it done, ask the denter not to weld it but make it with adapters so that it can be tightened through nut bolt. The same bolts that keep the control arms in place should be used in this case. This tube brace may be a good idea in places where there are superb roads but not here. If the brace becomes entangled in some hump or raised manhole cover it could not only give you a big bodywork bill but God-forbid may also prove deadly. A year ago I was in same woes and discussed it a lot with @Xulfiqar and @nfssaad but in the end decided against it. (The brace @Xulfiqar was talking about in post # 1817 is a little different but I am sure other parts of the floor of your car are in a similar state, and anything which can tear through the floor and possibly impale the occupants is not advisable at all).

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    I have watched "Rebuilding an Aisan Carburator Part 1 by Pin Head.mp4" on you tube before opening the carb. This video has 7 parts with complete detail of carb. cleaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    1) I want to get the muqqian in perfect place / alignment.
    2) I am willing to change the wheel hubs, control arms, shocks or anything to get the suspension in perfect position like that of a new car or better yet in a respectable condition but please refer me to a capable denter/mechanic who can do this since the car needs both a denting and a suspension job.
    Your car seems to be badly rusted.
    Do keep in mind that getting new suspension arms and/or new bushes or even new springs or dampers wont bring everything back to normal.
    If your chassis is off line and the strut mounts are damaged or not aligned then you are simply wasting your money by getting these items.
    First thing is to take carefull measurements of a car that is still in original specs and then bring the chassis back to its original position.
    The caster angle is also dependent on the strut mount, if its off line then you'll never have your wheels at proper place no matter how many times you get your car aligned.
    IMHO it would be wise to dispose off this vehicle and get another one because it seems to be badly rusted.
    Everything can be re-done by putting in lots of effort and money but as suggested by another fellow that investing more amount on the car than its current market value wont be a wise move.

    Quote Originally Posted by siraj_7 View Post
    Very Interesting, while I know its an Aisam Barell II carbeurator in Khyber, where did you get the CARB repair kit and that too in 800, here in Karachi even the Kabuli butterfly inside the carb costs around 2000 to 2500 to replace (maybe I am the only one who got looted )
    The carburetor is AISAN two barrel down draft type.
    Repair kits for this type are easily available.
    One of the most difficult things in the world is to know how to do something, and to watch without comment, somebody else do it incorrectly.

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