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Thread: Want to learn how to DRIVE an auto transmission vehicle

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    Default Want to learn how to DRIVE an auto transmission vehicle

    Assalam O Alaikum PWers

    I have been looking for an Answer but didn't find any regarding auto transmission car. Please correct me if i am driving in a wrong manner and explain how it damages any mechanical part.

    1. Every time i stop at red light i shift it to neutral.(usually its 20sec stop)
    2.When i am entering from speed zone of 80 to 60 i shift it to N and then again shift to D4 at the speed of 60.
    3.When RPM reaches 2800-3000 i depress the accelerator and when i FEEL the jerk of up-shift,then i again press the accelerator.

    Call me hyper-miller,nerd or whatever u like.. i just want to keep my car's engine on minimum load as much as i can for better mileage. I am just ADDICTED to PLAY with STICK

    P.S: 1.Current vehicle is Civic 2000,D16y4, 4speed auto, previous ride was mehran
    2. Car is doing 470km in a full tank with 60% city and 40% highway doing top of 100km/hr in it.
    3.Yes,liter of 91 unleaded is cheaper than liter of water and soft drink but still i don't want to waste the fuel

    Thanks for brief reply


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    Quote Originally Posted by nfsmostwanted View Post
    I dont get this what you're telling about the Hydraullic and ECT .
    my common practice of driving an auto consists of frequent shifts between N and D ..
    one more thing just to give you an idea i'm talking about a 2003 se saloon and 1996 civic exi
    I mentioned about being careful with hydraulics, because I read a single post on cleanmpg; a user was using NICE-ON with his 93 Civic with an auto transmission. He noted that it produced a noticeable jerk on N to D shifts. His experience was at highway speeds though; if you are experiencing smooth transitions between N to D in your experience, then by all means keep doing so.

    Your Corolla has a hydraulic transmission I believe.

    As for the difference between hydraulic and electronic, I am a complete noob in this regard; you might want to ask someone who has actually worked on these, such as Xulfiqar. All I know is that one uses hydraulics to shift gears, while the other uses electronics.
    _ 22 km/l from '03 VTi automatic, with plenty of room for improvement
    _ How to hypermile: http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/1510/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    I rebuild automatic transmissions a lot.

    in a torque converter type unit - when you are idling at a light with gear in D - the transmission is not spinning or doing anything, the "slip" that is causing your engine to not stall out is being done by the torque converter itself - because the converter pump is spinning slowly the converter does not reach stall speed (stall speed is when the torque converter starts to spin the transmission input shaft) - stall speed is achieved when you raise engine speed - you may notice the obvious result of it - if the car is in any gear, it starts to move.

    1 -Do not shift to N while idling - in most cases a good bite requires 1 second or less of apply and you can feel the engine torque itself against the engine mounts - dont worry its completely normal and the mounts are designed to take this torque (remember it was not baboo ustaad welding mounts when the car was being designed). If you drop shift due to a mistimed reaction of the red-yellow-green thing on the road you may shock the transmission enough to break hard parts.

    2-Do not coast whilst the engine is off on any direct drive FWD or RWD car - no matter what the badge says on the back. The transmission itself is cooled and worked by ATF circulating through the unit. When you shut off the engine, the transmission oil pump stops. by design of it the transmission oil pump is to be stopped with zero function in the transmission (unit is stopped and nothing is rotating at the output side) - also known as the car is stopped.

    If you do stop it while driving the output shaft is still spinning but the clutch packs have depressurized in the last state - this will cause extreme heat generation due to them slipping and will cause the clutch linings to burn out - in some cases it may even weld up hard parts too like steel plates - I have seen this a lot of times in many transmissions. even in cases where the user was not hypermiling but the car was just stalling out on the highway due to faulty crank sensor and the user was coasting for miles to a safe exit reapetedly for a month because he did not have time for the CKP sensor repair. Result = mega bucks repair
    , good for me though (extra income is always welcome).

    The only way to coast an automatic is to disconnect it from the drivetrain - e.g. a proper 4WD vehicle with a transfer case that can actually select a neutral (not applicable to AWD vehicles with active center diffy) - this prevents any input to the transmission output shaft from the wheels.

    The choice is yours - you can be penny wise and pound foolish, e.g. saving Rs 20,000/- by burning out a Rs 120,000/- transmission (yes a correctly rebuilt automatic starts from this cost)

    In closing I would like to add that if you are that tight on money then please look for other modes of transport rather than your own personal car with automatic transmission. A car is a machine that has its own buying and operating expense, if they do not match with your budget, then rework the budget or find a different machine or mode of transport.
    I have numbered the highlighted points.

    1- This is a perfectly valid point - that is why its recommended to apply the throttle after a couple of seconds to let the gear engage fully.

    2- The premise is that the transmission relies on a spinning ICE to lubricate itself - this premise applies to most AT vehicles. There are a class of AT's that this doesn't apply to; they are called 'flat towable'. The owner manual has instructions on flat towing; most manuals state that the drive wheels be lifted off the ground to tow the vehicle. Manuals of flat towable vehicles, however, state that the vehicle can be towed with all four wheels on the ground, subject to constraints. For Hondas, they are a maximum distance of 50 miles, with a max speed of 35 mph. Prior to towing, the vehicle should be started, shifted to D, and then shifted to N. It can be safely concluded that flat towable vehicles don't have a transmission lubrication/ cooling problem when coasted with the engine off.
    _ 22 km/l from '03 VTi automatic, with plenty of room for improvement
    _ How to hypermile: http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/1510/

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    Quote Originally Posted by overspeed111 View Post
    Bro my GMC AT starts to move forward (like at speed of 1-2 km/h) on straight road being idle and i have to press brakes all the time waiting on signal. and car vibrates too but if i put it in N then no moving forward and no vibration. does this hurts transmission as i was thinking that i might be grinding some clutches as car is moving fwd and i am applying brakes.
    funny thing is that idle rpm is being controlled by the ECU and that always remains a bit high, IAC functions fine, do i need to fiddle with the distributor to make rpm very very low?
    What GMC is this?

    and its normal for a vehicle to creep at idle speed, it is the scant residual power being sent down the input shaft, when you step on the brakes the transmission completely stops and the converter is just slipping away.

    your idling speed (regular american v6 or v8) should be about 650-700 rpm at max in drive or in neutral. If its not then check the vehicle ECU for other issues like a bad throttle positioner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZainMahdi View Post
    I have numbered the highlighted points.

    1- This is a perfectly valid point - that is why its recommended to apply the throttle after a couple of seconds to let the gear engage fully.

    2- The premise is that the transmission relies on a spinning ICE to lubricate itself - this premise applies to most AT vehicles. There are a class of AT's that this doesn't apply to; they are called 'flat towable'. The owner manual has instructions on flat towing; most manuals state that the drive wheels be lifted off the ground to tow the vehicle. Manuals of flat towable vehicles, however, state that the vehicle can be towed with all four wheels on the ground, subject to constraints. For Hondas, they are a maximum distance of 50 miles, with a max speed of 35 mph. Prior to towing, the vehicle should be started, shifted to D, and then shifted to N. It can be safely concluded that flat towable vehicles don't have a transmission lubrication/ cooling problem when coasted with the engine off.
    your honda is also not flat towable - if it were flat towable they would never specify a limit of 50 miles and 35 mph speed - it would have been unlimited miles at any speed (like a manual)

    I would suggest you buy a new honda with slushbox, do the flat tow for a couple of months period like you mention and then tear down the transmission - you will see the result yourself.

    your application of throttle to let the clutches engage is also wrong, all transmissions today are ECT and have stacked shift system, meaning it cannot jump from 1-4 it has to build up the 1-2-3 stack first. speed limits on the ratios are a given and were never expected to be put into work at exceeding speed, meaning the transmission designer never put into it that the driver will be attempting a 2-3 shift at 200 km/h - yes its a given that the 1-2 shift gates are positively closed at speed, but expecting the transmission to survive great speed shifts is asking too much (I repair a lot of such) - and always advise that if you accidently shift to N while driving, slow down the vehicle to a stop and then put into D. Do not shift to D whilst moving (specially Fords)

    every automatic transmission vehicle has your definition of "flat towable" in its design - it was to push the car around in a shop or remove it from a stalled location (e.g. tight alley) - if you shut down the engine at speed lets say 150 km/h - you will notice that the trans is not actually braking the engine - this false perception that nothing is happening is wrong, what actually is happening that the clutches have exhausted their hydraulic force and are now slipping (slip = bad for clutch lining), not only have you started a great big slip party but also removed any cooling medium too which is the atf oil circulation.

    another similar example - you can use vaseline instead of grease on wheel bearings, just because its slippery doesnt mean its actually going to work in wheel bearings at high temperature.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by capsat View Post
    @ZainMahdi coasting in urban traffic with an auto-transmission ? really ? - Neutral is "NOT" a Gear in any transmission auto or manual.

    It is an state of transmission as "doing nothing" [ power from engine is disconnected to wheels ]
    What's wrong with "coasting in urban traffic with an auto-transmission"?

    I agree on the 'neutral gear' part.
    _ 22 km/l from '03 VTi automatic, with plenty of room for improvement
    _ How to hypermile: http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/1510/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    your honda is also not flat towable - if it were flat towable they would never specify a limit of 50 miles and 35 mph speed - it would have been unlimited miles at any speed (like a manual)

    I would suggest you buy a new honda with slushbox, do the flat tow for a couple of months period like you mention and then tear down the transmission - you will see the result yourself.
    He would feel sorry for the torque converter and atf fluid

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZainMahdi View Post
    What's wrong with "coasting in urban traffic with an auto-transmission"?

    I agree on the 'neutral gear' part.
    sudden reaction (e.g. speed up required etc) can be a bit problematic wont it. e.g. the stone faced truck driver wont even tap his brakes if your coasting civic is not moving an inch when he is barrelling down with 45 tons of load.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saboor73 View Post
    He would feel sorry for the torque converter and atf fluid
    everything including the torque converter would be in sorry state.
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    @ZainMahdi - in your ideal situation, you need a dry clutch coupler on the outboard axles to remove the drive motive from and to the gearbox.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    your honda is also not flat towable - if it were flat towable they would never specify a limit of 50 miles and 35 mph speed - it would have been unlimited miles at any speed (like a manual)

    I would suggest you buy a new honda with slushbox, do the flat tow for a couple of months period like you mention and then tear down the transmission - you will see the result yourself.

    every automatic transmission vehicle has your definition of "flat towable" in its design - it was to push the car around in a shop or remove it from a stalled location (e.g. tight alley) - if you shut down the engine at speed lets say 150 km/h - you will notice that the trans is not actually braking the engine - this false perception that nothing is happening is wrong, what actually is happening that the clutches have exhausted their hydraulic force and are now slipping (slip = bad for clutch lining), not only have you started a great big slip party but also removed any cooling medium too which is the atf oil circulation.

    another similar example - you can use vaseline instead of grease on wheel bearings, just because its slippery doesnt mean its actually going to work in wheel bearings at high temperature.
    Even if it is not flat towable, it can be coasted in neutral with the engine off. You more or less agree that all automatic transmissions are technically "flat towable".

    The disagreement starts on the amount of damage suffered by doing so. Here, I also completely agree that a regularly Engine Off Coasted (EOC'd) transmission will eat your bank account if the manufacturer absolutely forbids any flat towing whatsoever, no matter the speed or distance restriction.

    In the case of Honda, it has sufficient cooling and lubrication if towed for 80 km, at 55 km/h. Arguably, the speed limit can be increased if the towing is for, say 2 km.

    Now, this is an area that the transmission design engineers didn't (understandably) research; the best source for data remains the experience of those who took the risk and tested it in their daily driving. Here, I would again like to refer to numerous hypermilers from cleanmpg and ecomodder; they have uncountable HM'd miles on their cars; I have yet to see an informed hypermiler with transmission damage that can be traced to NICE-On or EOC. Those who didn't read the limits of their cars beforehand were not so lucky.

    Your suggestion about flat towing a Honda in its limits, for a couple of months, has already been done to some extent; the prime example is Wayne Gerdes, who has EOC's his K24 Accord probably more than anyone on the planet. He has yet to see any transmission repair north of 150k miles. His is just one example of many.
    _ 22 km/l from '03 VTi automatic, with plenty of room for improvement
    _ How to hypermile: http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/1510/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    sudden reaction (e.g. speed up required etc) can be a bit problematic wont it. e.g. the stone faced truck driver wont even tap his brakes if your coasting civic is not moving an inch when he is barrelling down with 45 tons of load.
    Fair enough; I will modify my statement a bit.

    What is wrong with coasting in urban traffic with an auto-transmission, provided the driver uses 2-6 second following distances, while being simultaneously alert about what happening hundreds of feet in a 360* radius?
    _ 22 km/l from '03 VTi automatic, with plenty of room for improvement
    _ How to hypermile: http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/1510/

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    I think that a cautionary statement is needed on my part:

    NICE-On/ EOC is an advanced hypermiling technique that shouldn't be used by beginners. It should be used by those who have mastered the basics only. Its not without risks and restrictions. Please research carefully first; the link in my signature is a good place to start.
    _ 22 km/l from '03 VTi automatic, with plenty of room for improvement
    _ How to hypermile: http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/1510/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZainMahdi View Post
    Fair enough; I will modify my statement a bit.

    What is wrong with coasting in urban traffic with an auto-transmission, provided the driver uses 2-6 second following distances, while being simultaneously alert about what happening hundreds of feet in a 360* radius?
    your definition of urban needs to be questioned.

    I have driven across many many places, e.g. I live in Richmond - a few miles down south and Im in country (yes cows, pickup trucks and etc) - urban driving there is like gently cruising for miles - highway is the same except for a few more mph.

    come to downtown houston - and traffic is like karachi, drive in NYC - ferget abaad it.

    drive in London UK, no thank you, I'll walk.

    drive in Rome - Holy chit (literally) - drivers licenses are issued to anyone with a pulse.

    drive in Stuttgart - NICE - but them police man........ they have 8 eyes.

    drive in amsterdam, sweet, but them police......... do anything odd and you get flagged. grrrrr
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZainMahdi View Post
    Even if it is not flat towable, it can be coasted in neutral with the engine off. You more or less agree that all automatic transmissions are technically "flat towable".

    The disagreement starts on the amount of damage suffered by doing so. Here, I also completely agree that a regularly Engine Off Coasted (EOC'd) transmission will eat your bank account if the manufacturer absolutely forbids any flat towing whatsoever, no matter the speed or distance restriction.

    In the case of Honda, it has sufficient cooling and lubrication if towed for 80 km, at 55 km/h. Arguably, the speed limit can be increased if the towing is for, say 2 km.

    Now, this is an area that the transmission design engineers didn't (understandably) research; the best source for data remains the experience of those who took the risk and tested it in their daily driving. Here, I would again like to refer to numerous hypermilers from cleanmpg and ecomodder; they have uncountable HM'd miles on their cars; I have yet to see an informed hypermiler with transmission damage that can be traced to NICE-On or EOC. Those who didn't read the limits of their cars beforehand were not so lucky.

    Your suggestion about flat towing a Honda in its limits, for a couple of months, has already been done to some extent; the prime example is Wayne Gerdes, who has EOC's his K24 Accord probably more than anyone on the planet. He has yet to see any transmission repair north of 150k miles. His is just one example of many.
    well - I have technically driven my mercedes at more than 100 mpg.. want to know how?

    the other point that was flat towable on my point is that if a manufacturer does allow a flat tow - why the limit of speed and distance?

    What they are saying is just what Im explaining - dont do it often, its only a desperate measure (like removing a stalled vehicle from a tight space or moving it across the shop by pushing it)


    now about hypermiling - what Wayne is doing is just testing the envelope and only at a scant 150K miles on a honda. I would rather take the words of the actual designer and builder of the equipment rather than someone who is teaching to use it in a way it was not meant to be.

    e.g. the famous Q tip cotton bud - it says not to stick into one's ears - YES SIR - Im not sticking it in mine, its common sense btw. Thousands of others have stuck into their ears and nothing happened, other thousands did and they show up at the ENT practice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    your definition of urban needs to be questioned.

    I have driven across many many places, e.g. I live in Richmond - a few miles down south and Im in country (yes cows, pickup trucks and etc) - urban driving there is like gently cruising for miles - highway is the same except for a few more mph.

    come to downtown houston - and traffic is like karachi, drive in NYC - ferget abaad it.
    I was born in Karachi (See Blaak, Naarth Naazmabad ), and go there every Eid or so. I have actually applied basic hypermiling techniques to the pre-chand raat traffic in Hyderi and going to Sea View.

    Got a bit of Lahore driving experience too; got relatives there too.

    Both these pale in comparison, though to my regular driving experience during Metro construction in Pindi/Islamabad.
    _ 22 km/l from '03 VTi automatic, with plenty of room for improvement
    _ How to hypermile: http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/1510/

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZainMahdi View Post
    I was born in Karachi (See Blaak, Naarth Naazmabad ), and go there every Eid or so. I have actually applied basic hypermiling techniques to the pre-chand raat traffic in Hyderi and going to Sea View.

    Got a bit of Lahore driving experience too; got relatives there too.

    Both these pale in comparison, though to my regular driving experience during Metro construction in Pindi/Islamabad.
    For the most part of my life I lived in bilaak "ENN" Shumali Nazimabad. - I know Karachi driving and even today know quite a lot of short cut getaway routes even of the old city.


    btw - if you are that adamant to save some money, do what I did, find a cheap to move car like a VW Golf diesel or Fiat Uno or Nissan sunny diesel. 20 km/lit easily in the city. cheaper than walking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    For the most part of my life I lived in bilaak "ENN" Shumali Nazimabad. - I know Karachi driving and even today know quite a lot of short cut getaway routes even of the old city.


    btw - if you are that adamant to save some money, do what I did, find a cheap to move car like a VW Golf diesel or Fiat Uno or Nissan sunny diesel. 20 km/lit easily in the city. cheaper than walking
    I have lived most of my teenage/adult life in Islamabad - have to rely on directions from the front passenger when I am driving in Karachi.

    As for the money saving part, I actually use a bicycle if I need to go alone somewhere. With passenger(s), I use a car. Mostly the passengers are my friends, and they never get a free ride from me - they have to pay up. The per head cost is quite negligible with my driving.

    I agree on the diesel efficiency part - I have recently tried to convince my dad to get a w124 with an MT OM603 as a replacement for the Civic; he can restore it single handedly if he wants. He just doesn't have time; getting the Civic completely restored from a competent workshop instead.
    _ 22 km/l from '03 VTi automatic, with plenty of room for improvement
    _ How to hypermile: http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/1510/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    What GMC is this?

    and its normal for a vehicle to creep at idle speed, it is the scant residual power being sent down the input shaft, when you step on the brakes the transmission completely stops and the converter is just slipping away.

    your idling speed (regular american v6 or v8) should be about 650-700 rpm at max in drive or in neutral. If its not then check the vehicle ECU for other issues like a bad throttle positioner.
    Bro its a daewoo 1.5 OHC, MPFI and the transmission is very similar of GM 3t40 hydramatic but german is written on the dip stick, says do not overfill. is it alright if i keep the ATF lesser than required? as the fully heated ATF sign on dip stick is too high and the cold one is too low very confused about that.(GMC written everywhere on this trans including the lower pan and side pan)
    after how much interval i need to change the ATF? if i dont open pan for the oil replacement just take out oil from the cooler line.


    on my bro's daihatsu mira 660cc i performed ATF replacement by using cooler line and the pan bolt, i was quite amazed that only 2 liters of oil came out. but in case of daewoo there is no pan nut so i just have option of cooler line more than 4 liters came out and in case of charade's MX 17 more than 6 liters came out.
    .....

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    to flush the 4T30 - do a lower pan drop and replace filter too after draining from cooler line, fill up what you removed and start the engine, it will then flush out the torque converter - you will see fresh ATF at the cooler drain, stop engine and refill ATF you removed, after a total of 10 or 11 litres of ATF. Your transmission is now fully flushed. Set ATF to cold level and drive for 30 minutes - to raise ATF temperature to 90C - check the level - it should be at the hot mark. Do not under or overfill, severe damage may result.

    If you think that you simply pumped out some ATF and filled it up - then you have more than half ATF trapped in the torque converter, the transmission pump will not function unless there is ATF in the sump - that is why you need to fill it up to pump the dirty fluid out.

    Your transmission also has a vacuum modulator - make sure its in good shape.

    and please dont call it GMC - GMC by itself stands for the truck line of General motors. What you have is a transaxle made by GM (General Motors) - just saying its a GM 4T30E is good enough - its the oddball weaker brother of the 4T40E
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    lol i was calling it gmc because it's written on the pan and it also gives me like having a truck feeling
    bro is this a weak transmission? means will it go bad early what are the precautions to save it now even i dont have $$ to spend on its major failures.
    yes it does have a vacuum modulator, pipe fixed from trans to throttle body nearby vacuum pipe of MAP sensor. does it requires service?

    my bad thats why i was thinking that as soon as i poured in the new oil it became a bit dirty any how i attached HDD magnets on the pan of it, so now mixed oil is not responding to heat i checked that at 94 degrees engine temp very very small fluctuation from cold to fully heated transmission.

    to perform this job i do need a place to stand beneath the car in my home as i dont have it and its too risky to get under a car which is only on jack, and very hard to access pan as its too far away from front side, and in between this there is a silly strut bar attached by the prev owner now i have to open up these massive 24mm lower swing arm front bolts. (now i need some good torque muscles), once i took it to mechanic to open up these bolt and he burned thousand of calories on it but all in vain and in the end he said bhai me daewoo ka kam nai karta..
    bro 1 more question is that is it safe to take this trans uphill?
    any precautions measures to be taken to increase its life.
    .....

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