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Thread: Honda Civic - 2000 Misfiring Injector / ECM / Wiring Issue Troubleshooting

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    Default Honda Civic - 2000 Misfiring Injector / ECM / Wiring Issue Troubleshooting

    Dear All,

    I want to share an issue i faced today and require your opinion on what to conclude.

    Car:
    Honda Civic VTI - 2000, Automatic Transmission, Driven on Petrol but also has CNG installed.

    Symptom: Car was not accelerating properly and miss-firing. No check-light was showing up during the issue.

    Initial-Troubleshooting
    On some troubleshooting we discovered that injector # 1 (right most when viewed from front of engine) was not getting pulse.

    Action: Taken to electrician

    Further troubleshooting:
    1- Electrician checks and declares that wiring is ok
    2- Electrician checks ECU and says there is is something wrong with ECU.

    Fixing options:

    1- Change ECU.
    2- Fix via taking pulse from another injector and remove CNG wiring.

    Temporarily Fixed using option 2 without removing CNG wiring.

    Current condition:
    Engine is smooth there is no misfiring.

    Help Required for conclusion:
    I am wondering, if it is possible to grab a connection from another injector pulse and having car run without misfire or it is just that the electrician fearing that he might not get a better reward ended up telling something big and then fixing some loose wire i am confused and require help from members who might be knowledgeable in such issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by talhawaleed View Post
    If you have traced the injectors wiring till ECU then verify that you are looking at the correct wiring and that you are testing things at ECU.

    Normally ECU does not goes bad like this. Be sure, that you are looking at the right wirings.
    @talhawaleed

    1- you are the only optimistic person about the health of ECU.

    2- We checked all the wires one by one by connecting one end with additional external wire and shorting it to the other end to make a loop to verify that we are on the right wire. this is the surety we have that we are looking at the right wires. another thing is that i have learnt during this process was that injector related pins send current pulses which are quite low if a tester is connected in between it gives very dim light on the other hand if we test other signals there is a bright light. (higher voltage)

    3- what everyone thinks is that injector 1 related wires might have got short and burnt something back in ECU the whole ECU is not burnt only one pin is not giving the signal connected to a Power Transistor Array STA461C. I have read on Pakwheels thread somewhere about car drinking petrol like sharbat someone said this IC could have an issue and in my case the pin not working is traceable back to the same IC.

    4 - i will try to get the whole harness out of car to make sure that these are right wires. also there is a grim hope that this signal might be depending on some other input which might not be giving signal to the ECU due to cuts (again i am assuming) so we might check continuity of all the sensors and wires to make sure every input and output is wired properly and see if the issue prevails then Allah khair kary i will have to do some expense.

    but one thing is for sure confusing me that is ..... i am loaning signal from injector 2 to drive injector 1. still no misfire .. not able to understand why is the car so silent now.
    the car should be misfiring but its not doing that.

    in the earlier case when it was misfiring i was not getting any MIL for misfire and that makes me conclude that there is some "DHANTAR MANTAR" (USTADI) done on the circuit which can only be uncovered if i take everything out and fix it one by one.

    this weekend will surely provide some opportunity for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by afnan.bashir View Post
    @mobym ECU's are not that easy to go bad. Check both terminals, check injectors, check ground and what i think is its 90% chance of bad connection. Dont just spend money on buying ECU, If you were in lahore i could help you as your car is odb2b (as ECU Pic says) i have one spare. You could check to verify it. Just make sure its not connection problem. Dont 100 percent rely on these electric guys they are not that good at debugging.
    sir g i am in islamabad i wish i could have been in lahore to get some help.

    but anyways aap logo ne jo kuch idea dia hay saturday ko implement karna paray gaa atleast i am getting some ray of hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobym View Post
    @Xulfiqar

    Thanks sir for your help.

    last troubleshooting may i went to another electrician. he checked the continuity and confirmed to me that the first electrician diagnosed properly.

    both of them did the procedure which you mentioned with one difference, they dont measure voltage but use a bulb to detect current.

    actually a lot of people lie here to make money that is why when a fault is diagnosed which is costly. we tend to confirm it twice before condemning the parts which are installed in car.

    this was the same reason i posted in thread requiring help from people here.

    right now we are on a stage where we have finally declared the ECU as culprit because its not generating pulse on PIN-11 Connector B which is for INJ1. All other pins are giving the pulse.

    issue is now i am not sure, go for a change (either Pakistani ECU (taken from locally assembled cars )or Japanese ) or repair which i am not hopeful about .... will require guidance from members who giving there valuable attention to the thread.

    regards,
    If you test lamped the injector circuit with a high wattage bulb you will fry the injector driver (I can guarantee you that) - the injectors pulse can be very easily tested with an LED and resistor - it will flash at full brightness when there is activity and the amp draw is tiny.

    The ECU can only drive a 12 ohm circuit (1 amp max per injector).

    When I ran my shop I had made such test units myself from junked "cng emulators" I had about a dozen different shaped connectors.

    If you are loaning a driver signal you are halving the ohms (meaning the injector driver is now seeing 6 ohms rather than 12) this means the circuit is now 2 amps - the rest you can calculate yourself.

    the reason its working at the moment is becuase the injector is spraying fuel into the manifold which will eventually be sucked in when the intake valve opens up - this can cause carboning or varnishing of the valve head as the fuel will settle into droplets again rather than the mist it should be.
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    yup, LED is a right choice as rest of the bulbs wont even lit on short pulses or signal maybe very weak because of high resistance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    If you test lamped the injector circuit with a high wattage bulb you will fry the injector driver (I can guarantee you that) - the injectors pulse can be very easily tested with an LED and resistor - it will flash at full brightness when there is activity and the amp draw is tiny.

    The ECU can only drive a 12 ohm circuit (1 amp max per injector).

    When I ran my shop I had made such test units myself from junked "cng emulators" I had about a dozen different shaped connectors.

    If you are loaning a driver signal you are halving the ohms (meaning the injector driver is now seeing 6 ohms rather than 12) this means the circuit is now 2 amps - the rest you can calculate yourself.

    the reason its working at the moment is becuase the injector is spraying fuel into the manifold which will eventually be sucked in when the intake valve opens up - this can cause carboning or varnishing of the valve head as the fuel will settle into droplets again rather than the mist it should be.
    @Xulfiqar

    sir i guess the bulb was a low wattage one.....because multiple times they were checking things. Next time i will confirm the wattage.

    about the emulators, that is perfection because emulator is supposed to work with this circuit.

    Thanks for guidance.

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    Your ECU will eventually fry that other injector driver too, but as its already duff - get a replacement ecu.
    ZRS - Zulfiqar Racing Systems ..... - professionals at work - at crackwheels.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    Your ECU will eventually fry that other injector driver too, but as its already duff - get a replacement ecu.
    ok sir i have to get it replaced i am making my mind because technically it looks like i will have to finally do it. when you told me about the resistance and current thing that was the conclusion in itself .... ECU will fry soon.

    anyways sir what kind of replacement i should go for there are ECU's available which are used in local civic's of this model which are very expensive and the japanese ones. which one i should opt for?

    can i make the japanese one work properly on this car ?

    (price tag is 3 times lower on japanese one 5000 vs 15000 )

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    I don't exactly know the difference between the jap ecu and pkdm ecu, if the part number and ecu manufacturer is same go for it otherwise stick with the pkdm ecu

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    Difference will be in the logic built into the board. that is the concern i have,
    second there will be difference of the pin numbers on the ecu and their purpose even for automatic and manual there are different ECUs
    so it will require mapping but i havent decided yet i am trying to take some expert opinion plus also in search of someone who might have changed PKDM ecu to JDM ecu.
    @Xulfiqar bhai what is your recommendation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    If you test lamped the injector circuit with a high wattage bulb you will fry the injector driver (I can guarantee you that) - the injectors pulse can be very easily tested with an LED and resistor - it will flash at full brightness when there is activity and the amp draw is tiny.

    The ECU can only drive a 12 ohm circuit (1 amp max per injector).

    When I ran my shop I had made such test units myself from junked "cng emulators" I had about a dozen different shaped connectors.

    If you are loaning a driver signal you are halving the ohms (meaning the injector driver is now seeing 6 ohms rather than 12) this means the circuit is now 2 amps - the rest you can calculate yourself.

    the reason its working at the moment is becuase the injector is spraying fuel into the manifold which will eventually be sucked in when the intake valve opens up - this can cause carboning or varnishing of the valve head as the fuel will settle into droplets again rather than the mist it should be.
    Sir, can I please have some more details?
    as in how to make use of one, I have like 5 or 6 of them lying around useless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobym View Post
    Difference will be in the logic built into the board. that is the concern i have,
    second there will be difference of the pin numbers on the ecu and their purpose even for automatic and manual there are different ECUs
    so it will require mapping but i havent decided yet i am trying to take some expert opinion plus also in search of someone who might have changed PKDM ecu to JDM ecu.
    @Xulfiqar bhai what is your recommendation?
    exactly, that is why the part# and manufacturer of the ECU should be same 'condition' applies plus if one or more sockets are different in the JDM ecu, it is then a NO BRAINER..go for the pkdm ecu
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    Quote Originally Posted by syncview View Post
    Sir, can I please have some more details?
    as in how to make use of one, I have like 5 or 6 of them lying around useless.
    get a 12V LED or a regular LED with some resistor - cut the emulator receptacle connector wires and solder it on with correct polarity.
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    if ever you have decided to buy an ECU then why dont you buy a duplicate from scrap yards such as Sultan ka khoo.

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    I will pay a visit to the famous KHOOO this will be happening on Saturday. Friday is closed i guess.

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    the japanese ecus also have an O2 sensor heater circuit in them - O2 sensor is not prsent in Pakistani models.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    the japanese ecus also have an O2 sensor heater circuit in them - O2 sensor is not prsent in Pakistani models.
    Why ? Pakistani's consume more oxygen, so the engine here don't find oxygen to burn, and hence no O2 in pakistani models
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    Pakistani model is "cheap and cheerful" because the gubmint dont care about "emmissions" and the buyers only care about

    1 rim shim
    2 deck sheck
    3 stickers
    4 CNG pe chaltee hai?
    5 aasum pick

    corolla sales are like this 70% of the time.

    2D eskalayee - chitti walee

    paavar window kabaar se
    chrome pattiyan
    6XHID (2 are fogs bought from dekorashan shop)
    fake plastic leather seat cover
    rim shim
    tint
    CNG - laazim

    O2 sensor ka hum ne achaar dalna hai?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xulfiqar View Post
    the japanese ecus also have an O2 sensor heater circuit in them - O2 sensor is not prsent in Pakistani models.
    sir may be the pin numbers are also different on japanese ecu ..

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    @mobym, i was in same situation a year back, only mine was 2004 model, JDM ECU will also throw Codes for EPS, Air bags, along with what described by Sir Xulfiqar. IFIRC it was also no compatible with automatic transmission as JDM tranny is five speeds with OD, normally called AADOO gear by scrappers.
    I am a silent fan of Sir Xulfiqar & daily search his posts & read them all before browsing any other forum, GOD bless you Sir </SPAN>

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    Well test pulse first before buying separate ECU. And by chance if you have made up your mind ask shop keeper that this is my problem and if it goes with replacement ECU then ill pay otherwise i wont buy.

    ECU use BJT or FET's for their driver circuit. Thought they are sensitive but also durable too. Just make sure you are not getting pulses before buying new ecu
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