How does ecu tell cng kit to lean or increase the gas supply

[talhawaleed]

HOW DOES ECU TELL CNG KIT TO LEAN OR INCREASE THE GAS SUPPLY

                                            OR

How to Lean or increasing gas once hydrogen generator is connected

(Hydrogen Generator basically works on principle of electrolysis of distilled water)

A basic question, I wanted to ask here. Oxygen sensor senses the oxygen in exhaust and tells ECU that engine is running lean so increase the supply for petrol. Understood, as we know this happens once car is running on petrol and car has a system to control the supply of petrol to pistons using injectors.

Similarly, once oxygen sensor senses the more oxygen in exhaust, again it tells ECU that car is running lean on Petrol so open more supply whereas car is running on CNG.

1) How does it tells the CNG kit to reduce its supply or increase its supply.
2) I don’t think, CNG kit receives any feedback from ECU
3) Even if it does through Advancer or Emulator then connection won’t even been made by CNG technicians.

I have heard the Lemda kit takes feedback from ECU and does the same Job but that is not currently installed in my vehicle. This means, that there is no system in place which coordinates things with oxygen sensor in EFI kit (My KAAR)? Am I right here.

Only experts could comment here who have good understanding about things, I don’t expect anything from CNG technicians. Last of all, I intend to install hydrogen generator in Vehicle, now I know this will increase the mileage but few basic questions bother me and I don’t intend to get into this argument here if system is successful OR NOT, yes it is.

QUESTIONS arises, once brown gas which is combination of oxygen + hydrogen will pass through combustion system and correspondingly oxygen through exhaust then obviously Oxygen sensor will tell ECU to increase the supply of Petrol as thinking there is more oxygen in exhaust and that car must be running learn which would eventually decrease the mileage rather than increasing. Kits are available, which tells ECU to hold on (once hydrogen generator is on) and further lean the petrol as car is running on hydrogen + Petrol so eventually we have a better fuel economy and torque. Assume, that we did this successfully, I hope alternation which would tell CNG kit or Lembda kit is possible using the same system. Kindly comment and hopefully, very soon will demonstrate this. Do I need Lembda kit here in this experiment plus Alteration.

[irfan44]

i think exhaust analysis should remain same if mixture is optimal no matter what fuel u use. cause efficient burning process will leave less oxygen in exhaust.
& yes the ecu does nothing to increase or decrease cng. it only works with petrol. but it constantly change ignition timing based on on input from sensors even on cng.

[talhawaleed]

Can’t exactly says at this stage, if values from oxygen sensor going into ECU and actions which ECU takes should stand valid for CNG fuel. This I know, that TL(Emulator + Advancer) does have a wire which should be connected to oxygen sensor but does not know if this connection is really made or not by local technicians and if CNG kit has a way to control the supply of gas depending upon the instructions from ECU. I am afraid, that currently CNG kit is taking no action on instructions from ECU but maybe Lambda sensor is meant to address the same very issue.
I would like to answer my second question regarding HCNG. Experiment was conducted in United States where two buses were made to run on CNG and two were made to run on HCNG. Data was recorded over span of 25000 miles against each bus and it was concluded that buses running on HCNG consumed 10 to 15 % more gas as compared to the one running on CNG. It was also concluded, that emissions are low on CNG as compared to that of Petrol and CNG was very environmental friendly. Once comparison was made between HCNG and CNG then this was also concluded that with use of HCNG (HYDROGEN COMPRESSED NATURAL GAS) emissions were half that of CNG. So, vehicles running on HCNG were more environmental friendlier then that of CNG. So decrease in overall Mileage with HCNG but better emissions ratios were observed. Optimal Ratio concluded was 20 % Hydrogen and 80 % CNG in HCNG. Now there are more finding but at moment this is enough as per our discussion is concerned.
Further findings suggest that if Fossil Fuel (Petrol OR diesel) once used in combination with hydrogen then you car can achieve 95 % to 100 % efficiency. Hydrogen basically assist in burning of Fossil fuel that’s why Hydrogen kit in cars are successful. Most common problem which end user experience is increase in mileage rather than decrease in fuel comsumption because oxygen sensor senses more oxygen in Exhaust due to burning of Brown Gas (Gasses’ form of water Two Hydrogen and One oxygen Molecule). Oxygen goes out from exhaust thus ECU thinks that oxygen is not burning properly so rather than running the engine lean it further increases the supply of Petrol. Now, few manufacturers provide a programmed Microcontroller which basically takes care of this problem like Emulator + Advancers is suppose to take care of many problems in CNG(Fooling the ECU).
Why this information is useful for us because prices of fossil fuel (Petrol + Diesel is increasing). We know that fossil fuel cars are 70 % efficient which means that its burns 70 % of petrol where remaining 30 % is wasted. Hydrogen basically reduces the gap to 95 to 99.99 %. Thus we achieve 15 to 30 % efficient car at cost of USD 400 to USD 600 kit(which comes with programmed Microcontroller). Now how would this 30 % would help us. Think we have a gas load shedding 3 days a week and essentially gas is only available for two days because day before and after load shedding, CNG stations are so crowded that a decent person hardly thinks of getting into big lines. Now, if you can get 30 % efficiency at cost of hydrogen kit then assuming Corolla Gli 2002 to 2008 gives 120 -130 km on one cylinder within city so if ran on petrol then it should give us 13 km/Liter. When we achieve 70 % efficiency on Petrol then its means that same GLI should now give 17km/Liter within city so price goes equal to that of CNG. You don’t have to wait in long lines and can driving your vehicle on Petrol.
These were the motivation behind above posting

[brownrose78]

that is the reason why emulator is used, to give dhoka to your ECU

[dms664]

that is the reason why emulator is used, to give dhoka to your ECU

Spot on!

As brownrose said while the car is running on cng even if ecu receives such command it is just emulated and not actually carried out. I hope you got it if you know how the emulator works.

For the second query Lambda has nothing to do with ecu, it got its own ecu or control module through which it scan the exhaust and assesing the input of sensors the control unit of lambda then process how to adjust the gas flow through the ACTUATOR

[dms664]

This is how lambda system works.

LAMBDA CONTROL SYSTEM LC01

It's an electronic system which manages the carburation in traditional gas system (LPG or natural gas) with mixer for vehicles equipped with a lambda sensor. The LC01 ECU ensures correct air/fuel mixture by driving the actuator which doses the gas flow from the regulator to the mixer, located on the intake manifold (gas flow continuous regulation system). LCS-LC01 system does not need manual adjustments and it can automatically adapt to the different environmental conditions and use of the vehicles.
The system consists of the following components:
1. COMPUTER LCS-LC01
The LCS-LC01 computer is defined as a Stand Alone system for the fact it doesnt interact directly with the petrol system ECU, but it works in a separate and independent way. The computer processes the signals from the lambda sensor, the ignition input, throttle body angle signal to manage the correct air/fuel mixture on each engine working condition, by driving the actuator which doses the gas flow at the engine entry.
The main functions of the LC01 computer are:
Emulation of the correct signal of lambda sensor
A diagnostic and programming system by means of a special Tester-Programme to control mixture and conversion optimization
Petrol starting with automatic switch over to gas in a period of time depending on the environmental and engine conditions by managing the gas solenoid valve
Actuator driving to adjust the mixture
Managing of different safety devices when the vehicle runs on gas, as for instance a built-in system to cut off petrol injection and an electronic safety device that cuts off supply to the LPG/natural gas solenoid valves if the engine talls.
2. ACTUATOR
Electromechanical device which doses the gas capacity by turning a step motor controlled by the computer so as to maintain the correct air/fuel mixture on each engine working condition.3. LCS-LC01 SWITCH/GAUGE
Electronic component, located inside the interior compartment, whose main functions are:
Gas/petrol selection with 2 positions and gauge for the fuel being used by means of 2 lighting led
Display of the level of gas in the tank by means of 5 led

[dms664]

What we do in a non lambda system that we use a non electrical actuator through which we adjust gas flow/mixture by moving the screw by trial and error method while via lambda an electrical actuator control the gas flow as per the instructions of lambda ecu which get input from sensors in exhaust etc

[Xulfiqar]

The emulator only cuts off half circuit to the injectors, this can also be achieved by cutting injector power.

The advancer used sends an increased feedback signal (MAP etc) to the ECU for it to increase ignition timing advance for early burn.

The gas being fed is solely regulated by the negative pressure signal to the gas venturi from the manifold; unless the CNG kit has its own ECU and is controlling a batch of injectors or a stepper motor.

[talhawaleed]

So this clearly says that there is no way, gas supply for combustion can be controlled. What if you will fine tune your vehicle by only cleaning plugs, throttle body and even if you will make radiator connection with the kit mileage will not improve till the time you will not manually fine adjust the gas pressure.
So Lembda LC 01 is made to take care of this problem.

[brownrose78]

what do you mean by "radiator connection with the kit"

[KLINCH]

what do you mean by "radiator connection with the kit"

read this thread
https://www.pakwheels.com/forums/cng/182134-tip-maximum-cng-average-1<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>