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Thread: Cholistan Jeep Rally 2015 : News, Views, Videos & Results

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    Default Cholistan Jeep Rally 2015 : News, Views, Videos & Results

    Cholistan Jeep Rally 2015 : News, Views, Videos & Results - 11009612 954638821235594 669660446 o?oh64f3cee8bfc3c0132980785494e6ce6d
    Cholistan Jeep Rally 2015 : News, Views, Videos & Results - 10950652 898031456894981 6848763268337826780 o
    Cholistan Jeep Rally 2015 : News, Views, Videos & Results - 10367135 930700646954891 6032560178756350646 n?oh0170cde19e975dc581d243a462ae4494

    Congrats to Saidhi on podium and Zohaib Jadoon on a valiant performance! Asad Khoro was running a supercharged 1GR. Heartbreaking to see the Sabab's Tundra after a nose landing busted the oil filter but a brilliant Stage 1 time. Asif Imam lost his way for 50 kms, Ronnie ran out of fuel before sage break. Zafar Magsi blue smoked his Evo at midbreak and Yours Truly took the patli gali (pipeline track) from CP5 after busting the accelerator cable.
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaserag View Post
    Agreed, it is the straights that set the cars apart. I think in a straight line the turbo cars are much much faster than everyone else. Dhanji sb. was much faster than Khoro on the straights (as witnessed in the BWP videos as well) but his turns let him down. He could've easily been on pole position had turn 2 been a bit cleaner. Also, do check Chaudhry Khurram vs Ronnie near the start (BWP video). The 2jz vigo appears to be much faster. Now we know why Nadir opted for a turbo and not an SC setup.
    Well, I don't think it can be generalized that the turbos are faster than the supercharged cars as such. On Asad Khorro's SC vigo whatsapp drag video, we back-estimated around 350-375 HP at crank. I had said right after watching that video that this was over boosted for desert racing and will not last a tough Cholistan track. Apparently it was over boosted for the road too and Asad probably toned it down after reportedly blowing up two 1GRs in the lead up to Jhal.

    Anyhow forced induction in the desert is a complex equation with its jumpy torque curve, that irritating (and rather dangerous) blow off valve and the inevitable over-heating issues. Personally I feel its probably the wrong path for us to go down though we will probably end up there anyways . But if money is not an issue Crate LS series engines are a more efficient investment for the long run: http://www.summitracing.com/int/sear.../crate-engines
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    The LS engines are also now quite popular in arabs for dune bashing!

    Sent from my GT-I9500 using PW Forums mobile app
    The way a man keeps his car ,,,is the way he keeps himself...................

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    What about gearing ? Not very good to loose clutch in a rally.. and not very much economical to get custom $$5k or more expensive clutches
    RIP

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    $5k clutch???

    Good Stage 1 racing clutch is aeound 100k, Stage 2 for around 150k and Stage 3, which for our rallies is an over kill is around 180k. These are Exxedy rates. HKS might be a little expensive but Stage 2 HKS is around 200k

    Different drivers have different driving styles but personally I am quite decent with gearing, never been hard on clutch

    During Evo days I used the genuine OEM clutch set, changed it at the start of the season and never had cluch issues during the last rally of the season I.e. Cholistan, which being a sandy terrain was supposed to be hard on clutch/engine

    For Nissan I received a Stage 1 Exxedy performance clutch and its been used in 3 rallies, no issues till now.

    Turbo charged vehicles are hard on clutch obviously because of the extra power. Inshallah once turbo setup is installed, I already have a Stage 2 clutch set in my inventory

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    Humm to jaanay lagay TRD ka supercharger laine, turbo lab kabhi hazam naheen hua mujh sae...
    More Power!!! More power....

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    SK sahih kehta thaa: kamani na chorna yaaro!

    Cholistan Jeep Rally 2015  Videos & Results -1541079
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by saidhi View Post
    $5k clutch???

    Good Stage 1 racing clutch is aeound 100k, Stage 2 for around 150k and Stage 3, which for our rallies is an over kill is around 180k. These are Exxedy rates. HKS might be a little expensive but Stage 2 HKS is around 200k

    Different drivers have different driving styles but personally I am quite decent with gearing, never been hard on clutch

    During Evo days I used the genuine OEM clutch set, changed it at the start of the season and never had cluch issues during the last rally of the season I.e. Cholistan, which being a sandy terrain was supposed to be hard on clutch/engine

    For Nissan I received a Stage 1 Exxedy performance clutch and its been used in 3 rallies, no issues till now.

    Turbo charged vehicles are hard on clutch obviously because of the extra power. Inshallah once turbo setup is installed, I already have a Stage 2 clutch set in my inventory
    I use Stage Zero clutch plates....
    PKR 8k ke cheene clutch plate aur PKR 1300 ke Baoo Mohalley ke desi leather job.
    Halwa puri muft mein
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    Well, I don't think it can be generalized that the turbos are faster than the supercharged cars as such. On Asad Khorro's SC vigo whatsapp drag video, we back-estimated around 350-375 HP at crank. I had said right after watching that video that this was over boosted for desert racing and will not last a tough Cholistan track. Apparently it was over boosted for the road too and Asad probably toned it down after reportedly blowing up two 1GRs in the lead up to Jhal.

    Anyhow forced induction in the desert is a complex equation with its jumpy torque curve, that irritating (and rather dangerous) blow off valve and the inevitable over-heating issues. Personally I feel its probably the wrong path for us to go down though we will probably end up there anyways . But if money is not an issue Crate LS series engines are a more efficient investment for the long run: http://www.summitracing.com/int/sear.../crate-engines
    A TRD S/C kit gives (according to the official figures) a little north of 300 crank horsepower (in actual 65 crank horsepower and another 65 lb-ft of torque over N/A). A smaller pulley on the S/C would yield maybe another 30-ish crank horsepower. With the transmission losses, you're looking at around 240-ish wheel horses (20%-25% loss in the 4WD transmission).

    The biggest problem with supercharging is that it requires power to run a supercharger, that power is taken from the nose end of the crankshaft. Not only does it reduce output power at the flywheel, it also puts a radial load on the crank journals. You can only overdrive a supercharger so much before you start to prematurely wear out the nose-end journal. Almost always, a turbocharger will produce more power than a supercharger for the same boost level.

    For turbocharged engines, jumpy torque curve, not quite, yes you have to factor in turbo threshold and lag, but if you get used to it, it's not going to be an issue (you can use brake torquing and you can get on the throttle earlier, you also have anti-lag). As for the blow-off valve, only the free-air venting BOVs are noisy. The civilised ones blow-off back into the intake tract. You can hardly hear them when they operate. Inevitable overheating issues? Again, if the cooling system has been designed for the *power* not the displacement, there won't be any issues. Obviously, putting an engine into an engine compartment that makes roughly four times the power of the original motor, you WILL have cooling issues, mostly due to airflow extraction. But, if airflow and radiator sizing are properly managed, a turbo charged engine will not heat up any more than a N/A engine. Keep any engine lubricated and temperatures of the fluids at the right level, reliability will not be an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saidhi View Post
    If VTC is expensive and if by luck I have one than it surely does not mean that it will be left un-tested

    Evo's engine was muxh more unique and costly

    VTC is going to be turbo charged, if it blows than it blows,,, big deal
    You're running a standalone engine management anyway, right? If you are, it's much easier to turbocharge. Depending on the type of ECU you have, you could have launch, boost and traction control and antilag on your ECU.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo View Post
    For turbocharged engines, jumpy torque curve, not quite, .....
    Cholistan Jeep Rally 2015 : News, Views, Videos & Results - image016

    With all due respect - Jumpy!
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    Cholistan Jeep Rally 2015 : News, Views, Videos & Results - image016

    With all due respect - Jumpy!
    I doubt very much you'll be able to feel that much "jumpiness". Especially on a rally track. The graph is for comparison between a non-VVTi twin-turbo 1JZGTE and a newer single-turbo VVTi 1JZGTE. The dip is when the exhaust gases are diverted from one turbine to two. And the dip is the time taken by the sleeping turbo to spool up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by saidhi View Post
    $5k clutch???

    Good Stage 1 racing clutch is aeound 100k, Stage 2 for around 150k and Stage 3, which for our rallies is an over kill is around 180k. These are Exxedy rates. HKS might be a little expensive but Stage 2 HKS is around 200k

    Different drivers have different driving styles but personally I am quite decent with gearing, never been hard on clutch

    During Evo days I used the genuine OEM clutch set, changed it at the start of the season and never had cluch issues during the last rally of the season I.e. Cholistan, which being a sandy terrain was supposed to be hard on clutch/engine

    For Nissan I received a Stage 1 Exxedy performance clutch and its been used in 3 rallies, no issues till now.

    Turbo charged vehicles are hard on clutch obviously because of the extra power. Inshallah once turbo setup is installed, I already have a Stage 2 clutch set in my inventory

    Stage 1 or 2 is another story but what i was talking about is Frankenstein setups, swapping an Ls or Uz and mating it with some Toyota or Nissan Gear. There are 2 ways to tackle this 1 Local setup like SK has explained and second option is sourcing something from abroad keeping in mind the usage, last year i was looking into 1uz swaps in this case one needs custom adapter plates bell housings and custom made clutches and there are many options but a ball park figure i gathered was $5000 I.e 5lacs for all the above.
    If one just wants to Rally a local clutch may sound good but when one aims for Podium and that too the 1st position he will need something robust and not relay on local setup. Turbo charging and Stage 2 clutch is the way to go believe..

    Talk about Ronnie Patel as i Know he is running a 3uz in his Vigo and i am sure he has some custom made Bell housing and clutch which is custom made for vigo gear and 3uz he wouldnt bank on local made clutch and leather job.

    though i am a Noobie with Theoretical knowledge (gathered by reading thread on pakwheels and other internation forums) not Experience.
    RIP

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    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo View Post
    I doubt very much you'll be able to feel that much "jumpiness". Especially on a rally track. The graph is for comparison between a non-VVTi twin-turbo 1JZGTE and a newer single-turbo VVTi 1JZGTE. The dip is when the exhaust gases are diverted from one turbine to two. And the dip is the time taken by the sleeping turbo to spool up.
    If I recall correctly after Jhal qualification this year, Dhanji Sb's comment was that the 3UZs can hold their accelerators through the curves while his 2JZGTE tends to slide out of control when the turbos come full spool and is difficult to predict exactly when. You can see the different approach to the Jhal turn that the 2JZGTEs take vs the 3UZs in the video. Alls I am saying here is : Jumpy torque curve! You can work with it or around it, but you cant ignore it.

    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    Quote Originally Posted by sami_voodoo View Post
    A TRD S/C kit gives (according to the official figures) a little north of 300 crank horsepower (in actual 65 crank horsepower and another 65 lb-ft of torque over N/A). A smaller pulley on the S/C would yield maybe another 30-ish crank horsepower. With the transmission losses, you're looking at around 240-ish wheel horses (20%-25% loss in the 4WD transmission).

    The biggest problem with supercharging is that it requires power to run a supercharger, that power is taken from the nose end of the crankshaft. Not only does it reduce output power at the flywheel, it also puts a radial load on the crank journals. You can only overdrive a supercharger so much before you start to prematurely wear out the nose-end journal. Almost always, a turbocharger will produce more power than a supercharger for the same boost level.

    For turbocharged engines, jumpy torque curve, not quite, yes you have to factor in turbo threshold and lag, but if you get used to it, it's not going to be an issue (you can use brake torquing and you can get on the throttle earlier, you also have anti-lag). As for the blow-off valve, only the free-air venting BOVs are noisy. The civilised ones blow-off back into the intake tract. You can hardly hear them when they operate. Inevitable overheating issues? Again, if the cooling system has been designed for the *power* not the displacement, there won't be any issues. Obviously, putting an engine into an engine compartment that makes roughly four times the power of the original motor, you WILL have cooling issues, mostly due to airflow extraction. But, if airflow and radiator sizing are properly managed, a turbo charged engine will not heat up any more than a N/A engine. Keep any engine lubricated and temperatures of the fluids at the right level, reliability will not be an issue.
    Sami my setup will not require separate engine management. Peak torque will come at 1800 rpm and ill have the same torque figures throughout the rev range. The 5vz comes in at 75k these days so if i fry a set of journals, who gives a sh*t 😊. The engine will rev sweetly to 5500rpm which is more than enough. Best of all linear response.. no crappy turbo lag, no "jumpy" behaviour...true you can boost the crap out of a turbo car but willing to bet the 5vz SC, smaller pulley (some small secret upgrades) will be fairly competitive in B category....different strokes for different folks ...plus SC to aa chukka hai... 😆😆

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertypoiu View Post
    Stage 1 or 2 is another story but what i was talking about is Frankenstein setups, swapping an Ls or Uz and mating it with some Toyota or Nissan Gear. There are 2 ways to tackle this 1 Local setup like SK has explained and second option is sourcing something from abroad keeping in mind the usage, last year i was looking into 1uz swaps in this case one needs custom adapter plates bell housings and custom made clutches and there are many options but a ball park figure i gathered was $5000 I.e 5lacs for all the above.
    If one just wants to Rally a local clutch may sound good but when one aims for Podium and that too the 1st position he will need something robust and not relay on local setup. Turbo charging and Stage 2 clutch is the way to go believe..

    Talk about Ronnie Patel as i Know he is running a 3uz in his Vigo and i am sure he has some custom made Bell housing and clutch which is custom made for vigo gear and 3uz he wouldnt bank on local made clutch and leather job.

    though i am a Noobie with Theoretical knowledge (gathered by reading thread on pakwheels and other internation forums) not Experience.
    Ronnie and Anas Khakwani's conversions were originally locally. To my knowledge both pretty much run original 3UZ autos mated to transfer cases using local jugars. And good luck finding the correct parts for these over the internet in case someone wants to go the Stages here!

    And yes, while I do like to keep it light here, I do often talk and play with a lot of these "podium" people to know a thing or two. Yahan to koi nahin manta ya sunta, har koi sab se barra racer aur technical experts hai, but since you mentioned Ronnie Patel.... my regard for him doubled when he picked my brains on his 3UZ conversion from wiring to gearing. I didn't add anything to his vast experience and understanding or change anything about his build but it was his humbleness and simplicity in openly asking openly and listening to what I had to say about each aspect.

    Nevertheless, if the approach is to throw money to the sky and expect to land on the podium, anyone is welcome to try it, it just might work once or twice in a thousand years here. Laga layein sab Stage 3 ke clutches aur Stage 4 ke turbos meree bala se...
    "If YOU don't believe in what you're doing it'll never work."

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    My apologies if I have offend you or have disrespected or underestimated local juggars

    My point was nothing but juggar might let you down during rally.
    RIP

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    If I recall correctly after Jhal qualification this year, Dhanji Sb's comment was that the 3UZs can hold their accelerators through the curves while his 2JZGTE tends to slide out of control when the turbos come full spool and is difficult to predict exactly when. You can see the different approach to the Jhal turn that the 2JZGTEs take vs the 3UZs in the video. Alls I am saying here is : Jumpy torque curve! You can work with it or around it, but you cant ignore it.

    The different approach might be due to great handling of nissan qasim bhai can elaborate the handling capabilites of nissan better!

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    Btw, on the subject of 3UZ conversions, Asif imams evo was ridiculously fast... Qasim, abhi bhi time hai 😀

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaserag View Post
    Sami my setup will not require separate engine management. Peak torque will come at 1800 rpm and ill have the same torque figures throughout the rev range. The 5vz comes in at 75k these days so if i fry a set of journals, who gives a sh*t . The engine will rev sweetly to 5500rpm which is more than enough. Best of all linear response.. no crappy turbo lag, no "jumpy" behaviour...true you can boost the crap out of a turbo car but willing to bet the 5vz SC, smaller pulley (some small secret upgrades) will be fairly competitive in B category....different strokes for different folks ...plus SC to aa chukka hai... 
    The figures I quoted were for the 1GR. Figure around 25% less for a 5VZ conversion. Of course if I knew the drive ratio of your setup and the model of the S/C, I could probably calculate what power you should realistically get.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuhaibKiani View Post
    If I recall correctly after Jhal qualification this year, Dhanji Sb's comment was that the 3UZs can hold their accelerators through the curves while his 2JZGTE tends to slide out of control when the turbos come full spool and is difficult to predict exactly when. You can see the different approach to the Jhal turn that the 2JZGTEs take vs the 3UZs in the video. Alls I am saying here is : Jumpy torque curve! You can work with it or around it, but you cant ignore it.

    It would've been a better comparison if there were a 3UZ Safari to compare with. As it stands, the wheelbases of the vehicles are very different. The Vigo is 122" as compared to 94", the PajEVO has 4W independent suspension. Also, if the 2JZGTE is stock, its boost response depends a LOT on the exhaust system size and design. Stock, you get a 2" restrictor ring right after the dump pipe. This helps smooth out the power delivery and limits the boost to 0.7 bar. If you remove this ring, as most people do, you get an almighty boost spike to 0.9-1.0 bar in the middle of the rpm curve (around 4000-4500 rpm), before it drops down to 0.7-0.8 near the top end. We've had this "problem" (more of a trait) right from the start. So a good exhaust design is essential in getting it to make a respectable torque curve.

    And you are right, it's omnipresent, you can't ignore it. But, if you're running in B, and you want power, you need to go force induction. Of course if you're running in Cat A, all this discussion goes out the window, there you can fit in a Katech 8.2 LS-based alloy motor. 650 bhp N/A while emissions legal
    Wise men think alike and fools never disagree...

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