Cultus 06 Carby- Diagnosis Part 2

[digitalmohsin]

boy similar thing happened on my mehran a while ago and boy i know how much pain you are feeling coz i felt the same. i tried to replace coil, wires, point, service carburetor, diagnose clutch plate, check distributor but nothing worked. car continued to feel like dead no matter what.

i loved my car but with heavy heart i decided that i had only two options. either to commit suicide or to sell the car. i opted for the second option and all the pain ended in a second.

nonetheless you are learning something by this car but if this learning is causing pain and wasting your precious time then do what i did. and i didn't mean to undermine your efforts.

[rustam54]

man - you are constantly facing a dead end.

You have eliminated that the timing belt timing is correct, the coil is good, the s/plug wires are good, the fuel intake is good but still the engine feels lazy.

how easy does your engine rev with no load, it should be snappy.

Xulfiqar bhai, did I mention that I had to get the timing belt replaced the day after I tested the PCV. Somehow, the cam seal went loose and came out of it place resulting in considerable oil leak. The T-belt was all soaked up.

I had planned that I'ld go for timing belt replacement at 80K but since the pulleys were out, I thought of replacing it before time. The bearing was OK. I never really got why there are two notches on the cam sprocket. The engine only works with one.

Someone on Geo Metro Forumsays that I should also look into the possibilty that the cam sprocket might not be in place (as there are pins on cam to guide it in place). They say that with time, the pins shear and can cause a fault. At that point, ignition would display OK under timing gun but the cam would be out. However, I highly doubt that its possible with this much mileage.

There is another suggestion that sooty exhaust and no top end corresponds to a tooth advanced.

Okay for ease of understanding, I'll post a video of engine under no load.

boy similar thing happened on my mehran a while ago and boy i know how much pain you are feeling coz i felt the same. i tried to replace coil, wires, point, service carburetor, diagnose clutch plate, check distributor but nothing worked. car continued to feel like dead no matter what.

i loved my car but with heavy heart i decided that i had only two options. either to commit suicide or to sell the car. i opted for the second option and all the pain ended in a second.

nonetheless you are learning something by this car but if this learning is causing pain and wasting your precious time then do what i did. and i didn't mean to undermine your efforts.

Sir, you know what, I did the very same thing when I had a khyber in 2006. It was a 1995 model, first owned car. Its suspension became problematic and the engine response went down and down after a ring install (I later figured out that it could have been retarded timing). Kher, I loved it and I still miss that Suzuki. But had to let it go. Back in those days, there weren't much engine swap projects on PW or atleast of khyber. Man learns with observation and time and when I found out that swaps were as common in Pakistan, as seen on CarDomain, I felt that I could have done wonders with that thing (As a daily driver, not as a sprint machine)

Kher long story short, the thing is, people resurrect rusty old classics like they were brand new. Swap engines without knowing its past service history and yet it works for them. So why not I, owner of a car since day 1 and knowing what it has been through, cant spend time and money to figure things out??
Dont want to make the same mistake again. Hope you understand.

[rustam54]

Here you go Xulfiqar bhai

Petrol Sweep:

//youtu.be/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MQ1jk8mzLM

CNG Sweep:
Notice the drop around 3k rpm. Thats where it is when you are at 100KM in 5th. Wont allow you to go any further.

//youtu.be/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1izu-ADjY8

[digitalmohsin]

Xulfiqar bhai, did I mention that I had to get the timing belt replaced the day after I tested the PCV. Somehow, the cam seal went loose and came out of it place resulting in considerable oil leak. The T-belt was all soaked up.

I had planned that I'ld go for timing belt replacement at 80K but since the pulleys were out, I thought of replacing it before time. The bearing was OK. I never really got why there are two notches on the cam sprocket. The engine only works with one.

Someone on Geo Metro Forumsays that I should also look into the possibilty that the cam sprocket might not be in place (as there are pins on cam to guide it in place). They say that with time, the pins shear and can cause a fault. At that point, ignition would display OK under timing gun but the cam would be out. However, I highly doubt that its possible with this much mileage.

There is another suggestion that sooty exhaust and no top end corresponds to a tooth advanced.

Okay for ease of understanding, I'll post a video of engine under no load.

Sir, you know what, I did the very same thing when I had a khyber in 2006. It was a 1995 model, first owned car. Its suspension became problematic and the engine response went down and down after a ring install (I later figured out that it could have been retarded timing). Kher, I loved it and I still miss that Suzuki. But had to let it go. Back in those days, there weren't much engine swap projects on PW or atleast of khyber. Man learns with observation and time and when I found out that swaps were as common in Pakistan, as seen on CarDomain, I felt that I could have done wonders with that thing (As a daily driver, not as a sprint machine)

Kher long story short, the thing is, people resurrect rusty old classics like they were brand new. Swap engines without knowing its past service history and yet it works for them. So why not I, owner of a car since day 1 and knowing what it has been through, cant spend time and money to figure things out??
Dont want to make the same mistake again. Hope you understand.

yeah sure. its your fundamental right to learn and to experience as much self actualization as you can:) but i was saying just in case if this thing is causing you pain n depression like it was causing to me. if this is your passion then go for the proper training first buddy.

and best of luck with your car and efforts. its also my dream to be car literate but i think it is the only thing at which i am totally dumb.

[digitalmohsin]

and why you dont get in touch with agoodfriend? he is currently working on cultus and might help you with ur car.

[Xulfiqar]

Here you go Xulfiqar bhai

Petrol Sweep:

//youtu.be/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MQ1jk8mzLM

CNG Sweep:
Notice the drop around 3k rpm. Thats where it is when you are at 100KM in 5th. Wont allow you to go any further.

//youtu.be/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1izu-ADjY8

Inspect the secondary throttle opener vacuum pod and cam - it seems that its lazy to work.

[rustam54]

Okay, I think I may need some information over here what to look for. Please consider the following snaps.

I always thought the cable control linkages in two steps, half to primary, next
half to primary plus secondary, but its operation seems like it only allows secondary to open with vacuum actuator when primary is full open.

If you were pointing at the time it takes for actuator to operate, by my guess, it takes its time and operates slowly. By the time it could reach to half secondary open, the engine was about to hit red line (atleast thats what i felt from its sound. couldnt see the techo then). It never opens as long as primary is working. I can make a video tomorrow if its still unclear.

[agoodfriend]

Okay, I think I may need some information over here what to look for. Please consider the following snaps.

I always thought the cable control linkages in two steps, half to primary, next
half to primary plus secondary, but its operation seems like it only allows secondary to open with vacuum actuator when primary is full open.

If you were pointing at the time it takes for actuator to operate, by my guess, it takes its time and operates slowly. By the time it could reach to half secondary open, the engine was about to hit red line (atleast thats what i felt from its sound. couldnt see the techo then). It never opens as long as primary is working. I can make a video tomorrow if its still unclear.

well dear i havent followed your thread from beginning but i guess you also curious to increase some HP of cultus,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the high speed butterfly never opens with any lever ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it opens with a vaccum which it gets from low speed butterfly,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that gap will be filled during auto choke period,,,,,,,,,,,,in that period choke slide shuts the air passage of the low speed butterfly,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,resulting in sucking more fuel,,,,,,,,,,,,,and at that period the high speed slide diaphragm gets vacuum and that gap is filed,,,,,,,,,,,,mean during auto choke air is been sucked through high speed butterfly ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this process shuts off at normal temperature and again starts at high speed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,when you cruse above 70 to 80,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well the point is this that if you increase the vaccum of this high speed butterfly diaphragm then you can increase some HP,,,,,,,,,,,,,i personally tested this thing on mehan and right now on my cultus,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if your car engine is in good shape then it can easily touch 100 in 3rd gear ,,,,,,,,,,,,,i am attaching some pic have a look at that ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,may be many of the experts on PW wont agree with that but its my trusted and tested technique , so sorry in advance ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Xulfiqar]

The secondary throttle is locked by the accelerator cam till 80% throttle position - after that the vacuum pod will pull it open, the problem that happens is that the vacuum signal port can get blocked or partially blocked causing mid range falter. (had that happen to a carbed civic).. its engine would hesistate to rev between 3000 to 4000 rpm, and constant foot in carpet would yield a burst of acceleration as the throttle opened itself.

A good thorough scrubbing of every part of the carburettor would do good for you.

For testing - run your engine on petrol - remove the restrictor from the air intake pipe - select an open road, run the engine in 2nd gear at part to full throttle bursts - the acceleration should be smooth and constant with no drama, if you dont have smooth acceleration - and are positive that the distributor advances smoothly - you have air induction problems, (high possibility because you are facing it on both gas and petrol)

[rustam54]

well dear i havent followed your thread from beginning but i guess you also curious to increase some HP of cultus,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the high speed butterfly never opens with any lever ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it opens with a vaccum which it gets from low speed butterfly,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that gap will be filled during auto choke period,,,,,,,,,,,,in that period choke slide shuts the air passage of the low speed butterfly,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,resulting in sucking more fuel,,,,,,,,,,,,,and at that period the high speed slide diaphragm gets vacuum and that gap is filed,,,,,,,,,,,,mean during auto choke air is been sucked through high speed butterfly ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this process shuts off at normal temperature and again starts at high speed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,when you cruse above 70 to 80,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well the point is this that if you increase the vaccum of this high speed butterfly diaphragm then you can increase some HP,,,,,,,,,,,,,i personally tested this thing on mehan and right now on my cultus,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if your car engine is in good shape then it can easily touch 100 in 3rd gear ,,,,,,,,,,,,,i am attaching some pic have a look at that ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,may be many of the experts on PW wont agree with that but its my trusted and tested technique , so sorry in advance ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Thankyou so much sir for the detailed explanation. After reading your post, I went out there to confirm it on a cold start. Sir, contrary to what you observed, in my case, the secondary is not operating on cold start. The high rpm is only because of autochoke. They come down when the diaphragm linked to choke operates (after 10 secs or so).

Actually, I am not looking for some extra HP from cultus. I just want to bring it back to factory response or close to that. Its not allowing me to go above 100. The fourth gear also gives alot of lag. I'll look into the possibility of increase vacuum port dia but first i have to diagnose what's causing all the problem. Thanks again.

[agoodfriend]

Thankyou so much sir for the detailed explanation. After reading your post, I went out there to confirm it on a cold start. Sir, contrary to what you observed, in my case, the secondary is not operating on cold start. The high rpm is only because of autochoke. They come down when the diaphragm linked to choke operates (after 10 secs or so).

Actually, I am not looking for some extra HP from cultus. I just want to bring it back to factory response or close to that. Its not allowing me to go above 100. The fourth gear also gives alot of lag. I'll look into the possibility of increase vacuum port dia but first i have to diagnose what's causing all the problem. Thanks again.

i will try to show you the second slide working comparision on 2 cars,,,,,,,,will make a movie for that

[rustam54]

The secondary throttle is locked by the accelerator cam till 80% throttle position - after that the vacuum pod will pull it open, the problem that happens is that the vacuum signal port can get blocked or partially blocked causing mid range falter. (had that happen to a carbed civic).. its engine would hesistate to rev between 3000 to 4000 rpm, and constant foot in carpet would yield a burst of acceleration as the throttle opened itself.

A good thorough scrubbing of every part of the carburettor would do good for you.

For testing - run your engine on petrol - remove the restrictor from the air intake pipe - select an open road, run the engine in 2nd gear at part to full throttle bursts - the acceleration should be smooth and constant with no drama, if you dont have smooth acceleration - and are positive that the distributor advances smoothly - you have air induction problems, (high possibility because you are facing it on both gas and petrol)

I didnt test the 2nd gear method yet. However, the secondary response is here for reference. Notice at 0:11 and 0:19. I simulated the vacuum actuator before primary open. Then when the primary was open, the secondary didnt follow immediately. However, under normal running operation, the actuator doesnt operate before primary lock. When i oes, it carries along with it the secondary. But opens very slowely once it gets the chance.

//youtu.be/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBJobkhBlw4

On another note, me and Mr. Ijaz had another meeting today and tested the car over atleast 30 KMs. I took with me the 0 Ohm cable as well for comparison. First the new cable set was used, the car hesitantly went above 100 under 4th gear and he could not apply the 5th as it wouldnt hold. Then we replaced the coil HT cable with 0 Ohm. The car went to 110. Again couldnt go further. The car was giving a jerk every time secondary opened (by the paddle feel)

On the way back, switched to petrol and managed to take it to 130. Couldnt get beyond. The secondary was not giving a jerk now. Neither was giving a sudden increase in power. One would need to rev beyond 3.8K to shift to 5 to get a sustained 120~130. Thats pretty much the whole story.

[steve123]

On some rare occasions, when we take the vehicle on highways, the secondary throttle sticks in the open position and when you slow back down, it stays open and continues to pour in air n gas.

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[rustam54]

Okay. Removed the air blockage. Turned to petrol. Waited for car to warm up to normal temperature on way back from work today. Then tried, the part to full throttle burst. Its seems the car is breathing new life. No acceleration jerk. The power band goes smooth. Though i feel that it picks on really well after 4k rpm. Like it says, keep it coming, I can make it further.

Tried doing it 2~3 times. No jerk on secondary opening. No jerk in pickup. I was using the 0 ohm cable from coil though. (It seems strange but after the new plug wire set, the 0 ohm cable actually improves pick compared to 3K ohm that came with the set). Me and smijaz both noted this behaviour and one guess was, maybe the cap and rotor can cause this. A fault there can reduce pick and a change in the cable covers it up partially. But thats just a guess. What do you say zulfiqar bhai, should i try out the cap and rotor replacement as well?? Suzuki Dealership is charging 2100 for the cap!! Thats insane.

So i guess the induction problem rules out here, or is there something more to it???

[rustam54]

And the fuel consumption is still insane.

Today morning, over a span of 3 kms, and gear shifts at 4K rpm, the car consumed 1/8 of the tank. I mean from exact quater of the tank, the needle is now at the point shown below

The exhaust is also getting more blackish (more soot). The exhaust smell on petrol is quite catching. Its not a mild smell. But a pinching one.

[sadiaali]

Oh me think it's common problem nd every driver face it,,,,,,,,,

[moonraider]

sir jee hope u get your problem solved soon..i own a cultus too..
i dont know much but as your car is comsuming hell lot of petrol doesnt that
suggest that there might be something wrong with ur carb..??
just a guess
BOL

[rustam54]

^^Yes there is something wrong with the mix. But the actual problem (stated in post 1) is present on both CNG and petrol. A bad petrol mix setting should not affect CNG response.

Hope you get the picture. The options are narrowing down. Lets see.

[margallar]

get a new car this one is cursed

[agoodfriend]

dear i will suggest you to do that mod which i mention,,,,,,,,,,,today i drive my car after many days as it was in my brothers use and i was driving o7 cultus,,,,,,,,,,,,belive me it touches 110 in 3rd gear and still enough power and gear to cross 160 Km/h,,,,,,,,,,,although i am not a hard rider but i just gave it a test,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that mod do nothing more than to increase the efficiency of second butterfly of carb