Let's buy a car in Pakistan today

[supereagle]

if asked to choose between swift automatic vs manual which one would you go for & why??

Mohtaram SaharS Sahib,
It depends on a couple of factors whether you should go for a manual or an automatic. Here they are:

1. Are you used to a manual? Do you know how to drive a manual?

2. Are you comfortable with manual?

If the answer to the above is 'yes' then go for a manual.

If I were you, I would go for a manual. Here is why:

1. You have more control over the vehicle with a manual transmission as compared to an automatic because in the former (manual) you do the shifting yourself.

2. Manual is more sporty because you have more power within your hands. It gives you an impression of being Ayrton Senna!

3. Manual transmission consumes less fuel as compared to automatic because engine's power loss is less in a clutch based system (manual) as compared to a torque converter based system (automatic).

4. Less maintenance is required for a manual transmission and you need periodic maintenance in an automatic with transmission fluid changes at around every 30,000 miles. You can drive a manual with no such fluid changes for virtually hundreds of thousands of miles.

5. Manual transmission is more durable as it is far less complex compared to an automatic. Simpler things with simpler mechanisms last longer. Imagine a simple strong lever, which is a simple machine, lasting forever if properly looked after as compared to a Rolls Royce Trent 1000 jet engine for a Boeing 787 for a lever is a simple machine compared to a jet engine (which is a highly complex machine).

Here are the advantages of an automatic:

1. It is user friendly. Once you put into 'D', you forget moving you hands. For me, automatic is for lazy people, no offence to them please.

2. If you drive in traffic jams, manual will give you a lot of hassle as you will have to move your foot on the clutch and the gear-lever very often.

Talking about a Suzuki Swift, I don't see any point going for an automatic for it's a small car. If you go for a Mercedes S550, you don't go for a manual but an automatic because for me, automatic is a luxury and not a necessity. If you go for a luxury car, go for another luxury with it; an automatic transmission. The bigger the car, the better it is if you go for an automatic. The smaller the car, the better if you stick to a manual.

Regards.

[SaharS]

Mohtaram Supereagle Sahib,

I only wish if there was a super like button here. From Formula One to the Boeing 787 you have covered it all. Thank you for taking out time. It is such a nicely written piece. Really appreciate it. You have not left me with asking any questions since its such a well explicit comment. However, i did think initially that if i cannot afford buying a luxury car, at least i can look for a luxury drive...being at peace & not keeping my body exercising all the time juggling with the clutch & gears...but i think i should leave it for the time when i'll be getting a super luxury car

I completely got you point/ suggestion & am now going for a manual one. Probably i needed some more reasons apart from the more fuel consumption of auto, to lock my decision for manual. You have given me all.

1. I am now searching for a good Suzuki 3s dealer in Lahore to get a DLX Manual. I want that i should purchase a car from a dealer where i can go afterwards for the maintenance works etc. as well. (They'll entertain me well/ provide with authentic parts etc. since i would have bought the car from them). Do you think its right or i'm bounding myself unnecessarily?

2. DLX is also available with a Navigation system (price addition Rs. 50,000) but i think i should not go for that. Because just like Google Earth/ Map it would also give an extremely long route for going from point A to B. Your valuable suggestion is much needed.

3. I have full faith in our country's potential + expertise in different fields but i do not know how good we are in assembly/ machinery etc. After spending hard earned money on a Pakistani assembled car do you think i would be making the right choice?
   (Just Sharing) After reading one of the Suzuki reviews i asked the dealer that a few people have complained about water accumulation in their car's trunk (where the spare Tyre is kept) due to the leakage in seals & they said......."Madam no, we just received a few complaints on the water seepage through the wind screen..."...i mean they appear to be so casual on this...just imagine what would one feel after buying a first hand, brand new car, driving it for the very first day and having faced with such a problem....

Its great to seek an advice from Gurus like you & then this Forum through which we can easily communicate.
Kind Regards,
Sahar

Mohtaram SaharS Sahib,
It depends on a couple of factors whether you should go for a manual or an automatic. Here they are:

1. Are you used to a manual? Do you know how to drive a manual?

2. Are you comfortable with manual?

If the answer to the above is 'yes' then go for a manual.

If I were you, I would go for a manual. Here is why:

1. You have more control over the vehicle with a manual transmission as compared to an automatic because in the former (manual) you do the shifting yourself.

2. Manual is more sporty because you have more power within your hands. It gives you an impression of being Ayrton Senna!

3. Manual transmission consumes less fuel as compared to automatic because engine's power loss is less in a clutch based system (manual) as compared to a torque converter based system (automatic).

4. Less maintenance is required for a manual transmission and you need periodic maintenance in an automatic with transmission fluid changes at around every 30,000 miles. You can drive a manual with no such fluid changes for virtually hundreds of thousands of miles.

5. Manual transmission is more durable as it is far less complex compared to an automatic. Simpler things with simpler mechanisms last longer. Imagine a simple strong lever, which is a simple machine, lasting forever if properly looked after as compared to a Rolls Royce Trent 1000 jet engine for a Boeing 787 for a lever is a simple machine compared to a jet engine (which is a highly complex machine).

Here are the advantages of an automatic:

1. It is user friendly. Once you put into 'D', you forget moving you hands. For me, automatic is for lazy people, no offence to them please.

2. If you drive in traffic jams, manual will give you a lot of hassle as you will have to move your foot on the clutch and the gear-lever very often.

Talking about a Suzuki Swift, I don't see any point going for an automatic for it's a small car. If you go for a Mercedes S550, you don't go for a manual but an automatic because for me, automatic is a luxury and not a necessity. If you go for a luxury car, go for another luxury with it; an automatic transmission. The bigger the car, the better it is if you go for an automatic. The smaller the car, the better if you stick to a manual.

Regards.

[faiz.aslam.121]

Only problem i've had with Brand new Swift was, AC grip came off the second day and yeah that's it. Some water comes inside all 4 doors+ trunk lid but only a few drops that are on the metal surface. Oh don't forget the Clutch wire. It gets dried.

[supereagle]

Mohtarama SaharS Sahiba,
Thanks for your kind words. Here are the answers:

[I][QUOTE=SaharS;4147284]Mohtaram Supereagle Sahib,

I only wish if there was a super like button here. From Formula One to the Boeing 787 you have covered it all. Thank you for taking out time. It is such a nicely written piece. Really appreciate it. You have not left me with asking any questions since its such a well explicit comment. However, i did think initially that if i cannot afford buying a luxury car, at least i can look for a luxury drive...being at peace & not keeping my body exercising all the time juggling with the clutch & gears...but i think i should leave it for the time when i'll be getting a super luxury car

I completely got you point/ suggestion & am now going for a manual one. Probably i needed some more reasons apart from the more fuel consumption of auto, to lock my decision for manual. You have given me all.

1. I am now searching for a good Suzuki 3s dealer in Lahore to get a DLX Manual. I want that i should purchase a car from a dealer where i can go afterwards for the maintenance works etc. as well. (They'll entertain me well/ provide with authentic parts etc. since i would have bought the car from them). Do you think its right or i'm bounding myself unnecessarily?
   [/I]

Ans: It all comes down to if the warranty is voided in the event you not getting your car serviced from the dealer you have bought your brand new car from.

2. DLX is also available with a Navigation system (price addition Rs. 50,000) but i think i should not go for that. Because just like Google Earth/ Map it would also give an extremely long route for going from point A to B. Your valuable suggestion is much needed.

Ans: Well in a country like USA I would go for a car with navigation and in Pakistan I just follow my intuitions. Having navigation is an added advantage and you can get one installed as an aftermarket upgrade for a lot less money than a stock one.

3. I have full faith in our country's potential + expertise in different fields but i do not know how good we are in assembly/ machinery etc. After spending hard earned money on a Pakistani assembled car do you think i would be making the right choice?
(Just Sharing) After reading one of the Suzuki reviews i asked the dealer that a few people have complained about water accumulation in their car's trunk (where the spare Tyre is kept) due to the leakage in seals & they said......."Madam no, we just received a few complaints on the water seepage through the wind screen..."...i mean they appear to be so casual on this...just imagine what would one feel after buying a first hand, brand new car, driving it for the very first day and having faced with such a problem....

Ans: Suzuki has a very poor reputation when it comes to quality control. I have a 1985 Suzuki FX in my garage which I bought brand-new, zero-mile and has done more than 300,000 km. It is still going strong and goes like a boom. Back in those days the quality was fabulous which is not the case today. I won't go for the Pak Suzuki brand now because of the quality issue.

Its great to seek an advice from Gurus like you & then this Forum through which we can easily communicate.
Kind Regards,
Sahar

My advice to you: I want a brand new car for my mom and myself. After going through all my choices I've come to the conclusion that the best choice for Pakistan is a Toyota Corolla GLi 1300cc (manual). The new model is coming in March of 2014 and will come with an immobiliser. Just close you eyes and go for it. If you want to go for a JDM then go for a Toyota Vitz and import it from Japan yourself. No doubt, JDM cars are the best but the issue of price comes into the equation as I've outlined in the opening post of this thread. The new import policy will be announced in December of this year (2013). If you want to import a car from Japan, I can help you in getting one.

                       I'll certainly not go for a Pak Suzuki brand.

My other choice if I don't go for a PKDM is a self imported Mercedes C200 either from UK or Japan. I'll have to spend a good 5 million rupees for it but the car is a gem.

Regards.

[sherafgan-stallion]

Dear S Eagle

your knowledge base and expertise on the automobile are really impressive..., is it only a matter of sheer interest or do you hold some professional degree on the subject? i just made my account on Pak wheels to appreciate you.
Moreover i have concerns over launch of corolla 2014 body shell in Pakistan, i was following your Toyota thread on the other forum, but it has become redundant...i carry the same opinion as of yours and put my weight on PKDM cars..i am anxiously weighting for 2014 corolla launch in Pak,, and based on your comments / assessment of situation i sold my 7800km driven corolla 2012, but now when i call my dealer at Toyota capital he says sir it would take another 7-8 months, meaning by September, 2014 and you also mention in one of your thread (if i recall correctly) that first it would be launched in Thailand with the nomenclature of Altis and subsequent to Thailand it would be Pakistan / South East Asia,,and yet it has to be launched in Thailand....kindly clear the current situation a little bit...additionally, also tell me whether it will come in 1.3? black interior? push start? and immobilizer?
it would be pleasure if you spare some time to comment...
Regards

[SaharS]

Its great that you can help...Please elaborate how a reliable Vitz import can be carried out...which is the latest model in best condition that can be imported...till when it can be made available...it's price & freight charges...what about the rest of the issues vitz has i.e: its ground clearance, wheels changing, overhauling etc. & the amount of money spent on it...i have heard the repair & maintenance of vitz throughout is costly.
Kind Regards

[QUOTE=supereagle;4150666]Mohtarama SaharS Sahiba,
Thanks for your kind words. Here are the answers:

Ans: It all comes down to if the warranty is voided in the event you not getting your car serviced from the dealer you have bought your brand new car from.

Ans: Well in a country like USA I would go for a car with navigation and in Pakistan I just follow my intuitions. Having navigation is an added advantage and you can get one installed as an aftermarket upgrade for a lot less money than a stock one.

Ans: Suzuki has a very poor reputation when it comes to quality control. I have a 1985 Suzuki FX in my garage which I bought brand-new, zero-mile and has done more than 300,000 km. It is still going strong and goes like a boom. Back in those days the quality was fabulous which is not the case today. I won't go for the Pak Suzuki brand now because of the quality issue.

My advice to you: I want a brand new car for my mom and myself. After going through all my choices I've come to the conclusion that the best choice for Pakistan is a Toyota Corolla GLi 1300cc (manual). The new model is coming in March of 2014 and will come with an immobiliser. Just close you eyes and go for it. If you want to go for a JDM then go for a Toyota Vitz and import it from Japan yourself. No doubt, JDM cars are the best but the issue of price comes into the equation as I've outlined in the opening post of this thread. The new import policy will be announced in December of this year (2013). If you want to import a car from Japan, I can help you in getting one.

                       I'll certainly not go for a Pak Suzuki brand.

My other choice if I don't go for a PKDM is a self imported Mercedes C200 either from UK or Japan. I'll have to spend a good 5 million rupees for it but the car is a gem.

Regards.

[SaharS]

Also Vitz would be a 1000 cc car...Being auto it would also consume more fuel...
Initially i ran the thread of Swift vs Vitz & after 2 months made my decision for Vitz...the non reliability factor+changing too many parts & reconditioning it in Pakistan after importing it made me switch my decision to Suzuki.........Now i was on the verge of buying Suzuki when your comment is making me change my mind again. Kindly let me know about these queries & concerns. i'll appreciate your help in getting me to the right/ wise final decision.
Many Thanks

Its great that you can help...Please elaborate how a reliable Vitz import can be carried out...which is the latest model in best condition that can be imported...till when it can be made available...it's price & freight charges...what about the rest of the issues vitz has i.e: its ground clearance, wheels changing, overhauling etc. & the amount of money spent on it...i have heard the repair & maintenance of vitz throughout is costly.
Kind Regards

[QUOTE=supereagle;4150666]Mohtarama SaharS Sahiba,
Thanks for your kind words. Here are the answers:

[e9funcom]

How I can buy a car in pakistan?

[supereagle]

Dear S Eagle

your knowledge base and expertise on the automobile are really impressive..., is it only a matter of sheer interest or do you hold some professional degree on the subject? i just made my account on Pak wheels to appreciate you.
Moreover i have concerns over launch of corolla 2014 body shell in Pakistan, i was following your Toyota thread on the other forum, but it has become redundant...i carry the same opinion as of yours and put my weight on PKDM cars..i am anxiously weighting for 2014 corolla launch in Pak,, and based on your comments / assessment of situation i sold my 7800km driven corolla 2012, but now when i call my dealer at Toyota capital he says sir it would take another 7-8 months, meaning by September, 2014 and you also mention in one of your thread (if i recall correctly) that first it would be launched in Thailand with the nomenclature of Altis and subsequent to Thailand it would be Pakistan / South East Asia,,and yet it has to be launched in Thailand....kindly clear the current situation a little bit...additionally, also tell me whether it will come in 1.3? black interior? push start? and immobilizer?
it would be pleasure if you spare some time to comment...
Regards

Mohtaram sherafgan-stallion Sherafgan Sahib,
Thanks for your kind words. This is what I am:

What I Have Lived For

[I]Three passions, simple but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life: the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. These passions, like great winds, have blown me hither and thither, in a wayward course, over a great ocean of anguish, reaching to the very verge of despair.

[/I]
[I]I have sought love, first, because it brings ecstasy - ecstasy so great that I would often have sacrificed all the rest of life for a few hours of this joy. I have sought it, next, because it relieves loneliness - that terrible loneliness in which one shivering consciousness looks over the rim of the world into the cold unfathomable lifeless abyss. I have sought it finally, because in the union of love I have seen, in a mystic miniature, the prefiguring vision of the heaven that saints and poets have imagined. This is what I sought, and though it might seem to good for human life, this is what - at last - I have found.

[/I]
[I]With equal passion I have sought knowledge. I have wished to understand the hearts of men. I have wished to know why the stars shine. And I have tried to apprehend the Pythagorean power by which number holds sway above the flux. A little of this, but not much, I have achieved.

[/I]
[I]Love and knowledge, so far as they were possible, led upward toward the heavens. But always pity brought me back to earth. Echoes of cries of pain reverberate in my heart. Children in famine, victims tortured by opressors, helpless old people a burden to their sons, and the whole world of loneliness, poverty, and pain make a mockery of what human life should be. I long to alleviate this evil, but I cannot, and I too suffer.
[/I]
[I]This has been my life. I have found it worth living, and would gladly live it again if the chance were offered me.[/I]
[HR][/HR][I]From the Prologue to Bertrand Russell's autobiography.[/I]

This is a hurried note. I'm a bit busy now and will give you the answers to your questions later. Just bear with me and give me a little more time. I will come to you later.

Thanks and regards.

[supereagle]

Also Vitz would be a 1000 cc car...Being auto it would also consume more fuel...
Initially i ran the thread of Swift vs Vitz & after 2 months made my decision for Vitz...the non reliability factor+changing too many parts & reconditioning it in Pakistan after importing it made me switch my decision to Suzuki.........Now i was on the verge of buying Suzuki when your comment is making me change my mind again. Kindly let me know about these queries & concerns. i'll appreciate your help in getting me to the right/ wise final decision.
Many Thanks

[QUOTE=SaharS;4151456]Its great that you can help...Please elaborate how a reliable Vitz import can be carried out...which is the latest model in best condition that can be imported...till when it can be made available...it's price & freight charges...what about the rest of the issues vitz has i.e: its ground clearance, wheels changing, overhauling etc. & the amount of money spent on it...i have heard the repair & maintenance of vitz throughout is costly.
Kind Regards

Mohtarama SaharS Sahiba SaharS
Vitz is a good car. You can go for an auto. Now you will be able to import only a 2011. Here is the estimated price of a 2011 Vitz.

Auction price 1000cc auto 2011, grade 4.5: 780,000 yen = about Rs. 800,000

Freight and other charges to Karachi: Rs. 150,000

Duty: about Rs. 500,000

Clearance, agent fee: Rs. 30,000.

This amounts to about: Rs. 14,80,000.

Now this is my rough guess but it is will be quite close to the actual price. You will be able to get a very good car for around this price. Normally, people import a 3.5 grade, get its odometer rolled back and repaired with a forged 4.5 grade auction sheet. If you import it yourself, you will get a genuine quality.

Regards.

[supereagle]

Dear S Eagle

your knowledge base and expertise on the automobile are really impressive..., is it only a matter of sheer interest or do you hold some professional degree on the subject? i just made my account on Pak wheels to appreciate you.
Moreover i have concerns over launch of corolla 2014 body shell in Pakistan, i was following your Toyota thread on the other forum, but it has become redundant...i carry the same opinion as of yours and put my weight on PKDM cars..i am anxiously weighting for 2014 corolla launch in Pak,, and based on your comments / assessment of situation i sold my 7800km driven corolla 2012, but now when i call my dealer at Toyota capital he says sir it would take another 7-8 months, meaning by September, 2014 and you also mention in one of your thread (if i recall correctly) that first it would be launched in Thailand with the nomenclature of Altis and subsequent to Thailand it would be Pakistan / South East Asia,,and yet it has to be launched in Thailand....kindly clear the current situation a little bit...additionally, also tell me whether it will come in 1.3? black interior? push start? and immobilizer?
it would be pleasure if you spare some time to comment...
Regards

Mohtaram Sherafgan Sahib sherafgan-stallion,
Sorry for the belated reply. The new 2014 Toyota Corolla will hopefully be launched next month, i.e. January 2014. It will take around 3 more months for it to arrive in Pakistan. So the tentative launch date of the the new Corolla in Pakistan will be March 2014. Let us see how Toyota Indus handles the various trims. It will definitely come as an Xli and Gli manuals which are its best-sellers. If it messes with its Altis as a 1.6, people won't buy it and it will be a failure like its current Altis. It has to come up with a quality car like the Honda Civic 1.8. I will go for a Gli manual.

Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards.

[supereagle]

Sent from my A10 using PW Forums mobile app

[ecu_designer]

Option number 1: If he goes for option number 1 (brand new PKDM) he gets a relatively less expensive brand-new stuff with a fabulous resale value but a car of very low quality.

[.

just have a look
https://www.pakwheels.com/forums/spotted-crashed-wheels/128306-damaged-cars-honda-atlas

in pakistan u can expect unexpected.

I don't see any point going for an automatic for it's a small car. If you go for a Mercedes S550, you don't go for a manual but an automatic because for me, automatic is a luxury and not a necessity. If you go for a luxury car, go for another luxury with it; an automatic transmission. The bigger the car, the better it is if you go for an automatic. The smaller the car, the better if you stick to a manual.

Regards.

Man y dont u teach this lesson to Japanese Automotive Engineers that plzzzz stop making 660cc Automatic transmission it is just for big cars like Mercedes S550, what u think about automatic bikes??

[omar_575]

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Now that the new corolla is out, and you are clearly disappointed with it, what are you going to buy?

[saleem65]

Well help me buying an Axio.

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[saleem65]

Mr Super Eagle, Help me buying An Axio auto, not intrested in getting into import hassle, tips that "Fraud fixing" is avoided. Thanks

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[zalamng]

Me too;( I need to import for my elderly mother a Toyota Aqua ! Pls advise or shall I just get city auto?

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[leroy_jenkins]

Dear all,
I'm outlining a scenario about Mr. X who is a Pakistani and plans to buy a car in Pakistan after getting out of bed one good morning. He says to himself, "I want to buy a car and let's look at the various options I have today." Here is what he will find out.

1. Locally manufactured brand-new PKDM (Pakistan Domestic Market): He finds out that the cars are of poor quality with a very high price-tag which keeps on going up because of the falling rupee. He also finds out that these cars have a good resale value.

2. Used PKDM (Pakistan Domestic Market): Mr. X now explores buying a used PKDM car. He finds out that if the car is low-priced then it is of low quality too; roughly used and not properly looked after and not worth buying. He also comes across some very well looked after cars but finds out that the owner is asking a very high price. He walks out of this option too.

3. Fraudulent dealer-imported JDM (Japan Domestic Market) Imports: Now he looks at this option. He goes to the market looks at the cars and finds out that all are used, with forged auction sheets, odometers rolled back, damage-repaired and repainted, tsumani water-damaged and subsequently repaired. He calculates that he won't get what he is paying for and decides not to fall prey to the JDM Import Mafia which is dishonest and passing old, abused and damaged cars as almost brand new ones. So he walks out of this option too.

4. Self-imported, authentic JDM (Japan Domestic Market) car from Japan: After eliminating the above two options, Mr. X explores this third option of importing an authentic JDM picked directly from an auction house in Japan. He sits down on a table and does his math, calculating and adding up the auction price, freight, custom-duty and taxes. After his calculator blips the total, he is amazed at the figure. It is very high. The total keeps him away from this option too. He finds out that although the car is very good, scratchless, grade 5 with A interior with no PKDM (Pakistan Domestic Market) car even able to eat its dust when it comes to quality and reliability, it is way too high in price. He asks himself, "Which part of the total price (auction price, freight, custom duty and taxes) is unfairly high and should have been reasonable?" Mr. X finds out that it is the custom duty and taxes which have not only been recently increased but are charged in dollars. He is told that because the custom-duty is charged in dollars it has increased because of the falling rupee. Mr. X fails to understand why the Pakistani government is charging the custom-duty in dollars when the transaction is done within the boundary of the state of Pakistan. He is further told by the custom clearing agent that the government has increased the taxes too because it has gone broke and very hungry for money and therefore she (the government) has decided to rip off her people. She (the government) is already doing so by indirect taxation, increased fuel and utility bills which has hit her people hard in the shape of traumatic and unbearable inflation. Mr. X walks out of this option because of the high price-tag as the cost of this option is beyond his budget.

Mr. X's final two options: Mr. X is very worried now and finds out that all of his options are distasteful. He narrows down his option to two, number 1 (brand new PKDM) and number 4 (self-imported good grade JDM bought directly from an auction house in Japan). He looks at the two options very carefully:

Option number 1: If he goes for option number 1 (brand new PKDM) he gets a relatively less expensive brand-new stuff with a fabulous resale value but a car of very low quality.

Option number 4: He examines his other option, option number 4 (self-imported, good grade JDM bought directly from an auction house). If he goes for this option, he gets fabulous quality but a car with a very high price-tag and a relatively low resale value. It is beyond his budget too. Price keeps him away from this option.

Mr. X's final pick: Option number 1 (brand-new PKDM car). He has reluctantly picked this option because the purchase price is low as compared to option number 4 (self-import JDM). Low price has forced him to pick this option.

My conclusion: The government has allowed the import of good grade, used JDMs from Japan with fabulous quality but has made the price-tag beyond the reach of a common user. She has increased the duty and taxes so much that it is keeping the end-user away from this option. Therefore a common Pakistani is forced to buy low-priced, low quality vehicles made by the local manufacturers. All of this is being done on purpose. I don't know why? Why are we forced to go to the local manufacturers? Why we have to spend our hard-earned money to get low-quality vehicles from the local manufacturers? Why is this local manufacturer Mafia ruling all the way?

I've written this thread to highlight the various options a car-buyer has today. I've concluded that we the car-buyers don't have any option but to go to the local manufacturers to buy their sub-standard crap which is not at par with the international standard. These local manufacturers are ripping off the car-buyers since 1983 when the first Pakistani manufactured Suzuki SS80FR (800 cc) came into the market. The sad part is that the government is allowing them to do so. Is she (the government) getting any kickbacks? Probably yes!

Regards.

Fabulous writeup, totally eclipses what I am going through except I am not in Pakistan and I can not even consider all my options in detail. If I go for a PKDM I have to book it ahead before I go there, one hell of a blind plunge this.