PACPAD :: A PAF (Pakistan Air Force) made copy of iPad

[BackToCivicFaiez]

You are wrong here, there is complete facility in HIT where Al-Khalids (Tanks) are produced from scratch and not from old chinese tanks. Everything is not as bad as you think

All the high tech parts are imported. They just do the welding and cutting and machining there....

[alam786]

And that F16s technology is itself obselete.

[hasham30]

Your only point is NOT to allow any scrutiny of whatever the military does, right or wrong.

What business has PAC to make and sell consumer gadgets like the PACPAD?

I can give you an example of Pak-Saudia (300 Al-Khalid Tanks) deal that never materialized, if it had we could have manufactured our own tanks for nothing and wouldnt have spent a single cent from the people's money (TAX PAYERS IF THERE ARE ANY) and that money could have been spent on something better

So if this the true spirit behind PACPAD than i think we should not be so critical about it

[getscorpion]

... Not to mention that state of art armypad has no gps whereas one can find similar specs chinese tab with builtin gps and usb keyboard pouch under 12k easily...

Sent from my SGSICS

[BackToCivicFaiez]

Your only point is NOT to allow any scrutiny of whatever the military does, right or wrong.

What business has PAC to make and sell consumer gadgets like the PACPAD?

I can give you an example of Pak-Saudia (300 Al-Khalid Tanks) deal that never materialized, if it had we could have manufactured our own tanks for nothing and wouldnt have spent a single cent from the people's money (TAX PAYERS IF THERE ARE ANY) and that money could have been spent on something better

So if this the true spirit behind PACPAD than i think we should not be so critical about it

income tax is not the only tax. Every single pakistani, even the beggar and the politican is paying sales tax etc...

[VCheng]

...................
So if this the true spirit behind PACPAD than i think we should not be so critical about it

IF it is the spirit, then I would agree with you, and wait to see just how this consumer gadget does in the market.

I have my doubts about both.

[hasham30]

All the high tech parts are imported. They just do the welding and cutting and machining there....

Well we are deviating from the thread again but all the parts can't be manufactured in one country. Same is the case with all leading AFVs in the world. If the local steel mills cant produce the requisite sort of steel than it has to be imported rest every thing is done here even the gun is solely manufactured at HIT. Yes, few components incle the night sights and engine are imported

[VCheng]

Well we are deviating from the thread again but all the parts can't be manufactured in one country. Same is the case with all leading AFVs in the world. If the local steel mills cant produce the requisite sort of steel than it has to be imported rest every thing is done here even the gun is solely manufactured at HIT. Yes, few components incle the night sights and engine are imported

Just like the PACPAD, most projects have involved assembly and refurbishment, which are very different than proper design and manufacturing abilities.

[alam786]

What Armour they are using in Khalid tanks other than steel jackets, how the tank can see if it has been locked by an incoming missile and take defensive measures or atleast alert it's crew. How efficient the tank is in terms of fuel consumption and in battle ground. IF these issues are not addressed than it is merely a bunker from 1930s.
I visited HMC in 1994 and they were manufacturing only the outer jacket of tanks there. A skilled metal worker can do it if all equipment is available for e.g funaces and castings...we need satellites, precision weapons technology if we want to stay in the game in this century..a single high tech helicopter can deal with 30 of these tanks firing from a distance of 20kms even in night time....the scenes we all witnessed during gulf war.

[hasham30]

What Armour they are using in Khalid tanks other than steel jackets, how the tank can see if it has been locked by an incoming missile and take defensive measures or atleast alert it's crew. How efficient the tank is in terms of fuel consumption and in battle ground. IF these issues are not addressed than it is merely a bunker from 1930s.
I visited HMC in 1994 and they were manufacturing only the outer jacket of tanks there. A skilled metal worker can do it if all equipment is available for e.g funaces and castings...we need satellites, precision weapons technology if we want to stay in the game in this century..a single high tech helicopter can deal with 30 of these tanks firing from a distance of 20kms even in night time....the scenes we all witnessed during gulf war.

Well this tank is made against the Enemy on the eastern front and till now they dont have a high tech Helicopter that can take down 20 of these tanks.
Secondly these days the tanks are not about metal jackets only, they are suitably equipped with active and passive protection systems like Arena and ERA plates which are highly effective against chemical energy projectiles like anti tank missiles even if they are fired from a helicopters.
And lastly things have changed quite much since 1994, there is a facility there where you are able to design tanks and APCs

[alam786]

Well this tank is made against the Enemy on the eastern front and till now they dont have a high tech Helicopter that can take down 20 of these tanks.
Secondly these days the tanks are not about metal jackets only, they are suitably equipped with active and passive protection systems like Arena and ERA plates which are highly effective against chemical energy projectiles like anti tank missiles even if they are fired from a helicopters.
And lastly things have changed quite much since 1994, there is a facility there where you are able to design tanks and APCs

Apache to give army more teeth - India - DNA

[umair2203]

A Statement from PAF

Ofcourse we have no capability to install new control systems in our F16s but we are capable enough to assemble a micro-PAD. That is our success story.On this basis we would conquer the world in very near future. Our commercial wing will generate us enough funds to transfer to foreign companies to overhaul our jets for a overwhelming lengh of time totalling billions of dollars.

And where is the funds being generated from the pocket of ordinary pakistanies?Truly soldiers that is a reflection of the future...

There is something wrong somewhere in the whole success story.

Although your hatred and ridiculousness is understandable but I'll try and answer..

Ofcourse we have no capability to install new control systems in our F16s

It is not the question of Capability , but I'll like to know which control system are you talking about ? ... JF-17 is our aircraft , 50% of the the Avionics and around 45% of the structure will be designed , developed and serially produced here ... when I say designed , it means made from scratch !!

If you can think out side your rigid head, it is a great achievement for a country which has never ventured in to aircraft manufacturing !!!!

but we are capable enough to assemble a micro-PAD

Not only Micro , we can go up to Nano and Pico level !!! If you doubt, be my guest come visit the place !

Our commercial wing will generate us enough funds to transfer to foreign companies to overhaul our jets for a overwhelming lengh of time totalling billions of dollars.

As I said before Also, This is the first pilot project... No government institution has done Cost Vs Profit break even analysis or ever thought of it, but things are changing .... Setting up manufacturing industry, starting new ventures is just the starting steps toward self reliance so we don't have to go ask others ....

WHY CAN'T YOU BE SUPPORTIVE ??

[alam786]

@u2203, Please shed some light why f16s were sent to Turkey? and what kind of contract PAF has with that Turkish firm?

With that kind of money, we can set up a complete a-z manufacturing unit in pakistan including the high spec pcbs, IC fabrication along with a research university for high flyers.

Def I like to support our armed forces. I will buy one on my next visit to pakistan. Certainly it would do more than a Kindle at the same price? Are you offering any warranties and which airbase I have to visit in case it breaks down during warranty period. Would you be able to replace it or I have to send it back to China for repairs?

From above conversation, i realised PAF needs some institute for Anger Management as well..
GTG, nice conversation but please do think about the motive of these discussions. May be in next 20yrs you will become the CJS and improve our defense along the directions we all are proposing.

[hasham30]

Apache to give army more teeth - India - DNA

Well the deal is in pipeline and even the trials are not complete as yet for 22 x Apaches. Even if they get the apaches they dont have 20 kms range (Use Fire and forget (STAFF) missiles with a max range of not more than 7-8 kms)
Again all the anti-tank missiles are chemical energy projectiles which can be effectively defeated by using active protection system. A similar system called VARTA (An electro-optical jamming device) being installed on Al-Khalid-1 tanks

[VCheng]

Well the deal is in pipeline and even the trials are not complete as yet for 22 x Apaches. Even if they get the apaches they dont have 20 kms range (Use Fire and forget (STAFF) missiles with a max range of not more than 7-8 kms)
Again all the anti-tank missiles are chemical energy projectiles which can be effectively defeated by using active protection system. A similar system called VARTA (An electro-optical jamming device) being installed on Al-Khalid-1 tanks

All these "toys" won't matter given the perilous state of the economy, which will lead to a massive internal failure of the state if not checked immediately.

[wingster]

agar men karachi ke language menn bolon to,
US AND EUROPE men beth kar " MUN SE FIRE " karana asan kam han ,
...
alam786
VCheng
BackToCivicFaiez

ap logno ko kya ye bat samajh nahi ate ke , gov is not capable of providing enough budget according to the needs of ARMY so they have no option left to generate income from private sector , if they dont have enough investment how they can setup there complete manufacturing facilities

... Not to mention that state of art armypad has no gps whereas one can find similar specs chinese tab with builtin gps and usb keyboard pouch under 12k easily...

Sent from my SGSICS

does those chines tab have, 1 year warranty , and after sales service ?

[BackToCivicFaiez]

Not only Micro , we can go up to Nano and Pico level !!! If you doubt, be my guest come visit the place !

As I said before Also, This is the first pilot project... No government institution has done Cost Vs Profit break even analysis or ever thought of it, but things are changing .... Setting up manufacturing industry, starting new ventures is just the starting steps toward self reliance so we don't have to go ask others ....

WHY CAN'T YOU BE SUPPORTIVE ??

Pico level? you must be joking...And when you say nano and pico , what thing are you talking about ? manufacturing technology or size of processor or wat?
even leading companies like intel, amd, casio, texas instruments etc cant do that, but PAF has that technology all of a sudden.

agar men karachi ke language menn bolon to,
US AND EUROPE men beth kar " MUN SE FIRE " karana asan kam han ,
...
alam786
VCheng
BackToCivicFaiez

ap logno ko kya ye bat samajh nahi ate ke , gov is not capable of providing enough budget according to the needs of ARMY so they have no option left to generate income from private sector , if they dont have enough investment how they can setup there complete manufacturing facilities

yet they have 100s of millions of dollars to give to turkey, usa etc....?

these hundreds of millions are enough to develop and build local high tech hardware. Except there is no commission in it.

[umair2203]

Pico level? you must be joking...And when you say nano and pico , what thing are you talking about ? manufacturing technology or size of processor or wat?
even leading companies like intel, amd, casio, texas instruments etc cant do that, but PAF has that technology all of a sudden.

what is your idea on the type of precision required for Aircraft manufacturing set up ? Any wild guess ?

A bomb dropped after the delay of 0.5 micro sec is a miss ! and is considered as a fail response of weapon and mission management computer .// The processor which runs at the core is heavier and is clocking 10 time faster then any product you mentioned , feeding sub computers, systems who in turn augment the main system, 4 redundant data buses being fed from two separate systems ....

Your example is entirely irrelevant , commercial industry has no competition with Military production !!!!! never been , never has

There are three grades of Production and materials

Commercial

Industrial

Military Standard

[alam786]

A bomb dropped after the delay of 0.5 micro sec is a miss ! and is considered as a fail response of weapon and mission management computer .// The processor which runs at the core is heavier and is clocking 10 time faster then any product you mentioned , feeding sub computers, systems who in turn augment the main system, 4 redundant data buses being fed from two separate systems ....

I cannot make sense from above technical details. Ofcourse when a fighter jet is travelling at mac speed than the altitude, air drag and atmosphere, size of target, speed of fighter are some of the variables that determine the exact time of release of the weapon.

But, we are talking here smart bombs which can alter the course and usually hit from 90 degree angle of attack for max damage. These have not predetermined flight path and will depend on where the laser points. These do not need precise timing even a few seconds delay is not important.

The microns and nana technology which faiez mentioned are regarding the compact size of a microchip in micro nana meters and how much electronics you can pack in a small dip package. I do not understand what redundant buses have to do with the discussion or the central computer. An 8mhz processor has enough response time to launch a missile.

regards

[BackToCivicFaiez]

what is your idea on the type of precision required for Aircraft manufacturing set up ? Any wild guess ?

A bomb dropped after the delay of 0.5 micro sec is a miss ! and is considered as a fail response of weapon and mission management computer .// The processor which runs at the core is heavier and is clocking 10 time faster then any product you mentioned , feeding sub computers, systems who in turn augment the main system, 4 redundant data buses being fed from two separate systems ....

Your example is entirely irrelevant , commercial industry has no competition with Military production !!!!! never been , never has

There are three grades of Production and materials

Commercial

Industrial

Military Standard

The precision required is not in the clock rate of processor. Any cheap modern processor has enough of that to be put in missile systems. It is the total response time of the entire system that needs to be very low. the time delay between sensor input and useful output has to be extremely low. thats what you are talking about.

There's not THAT much amount of data that needs to be processed. The basic technology used in military hardware is same as commercial/industrial applications. But there's a difference in the application. The processor in F16 cannot be put in a desktop pc. And a computer system of JF-17 is also completely different from PAC PAD.

I cannot make sense from above technical details. Ofcourse when a fighter jet is travelling at mac speed than the altitude, air drag and atmosphere, size of target, speed of fighter are some of the variables that determine the exact time of release of the weapon.

But, we are talking here smart bombs which can alter the course and usually hit from 90 degree angle of attack for max damage. These have not predetermined flight path and will depend on where the laser points. These do not need precise timing even a few seconds delay is not important.

The microns and nana technology which faiez mentioned are regarding the compact size of a microchip in micro nana meters and how much electronics you can pack in a small dip package. I do not understand what redundant buses have to do with the discussion or the central computer. An 8mhz processor has enough response time to launch a missile.

regards

You are correct. They had computer guided missiles back in 60s and 70s which used slow processors (compared to today).

And when talking about precision, does anyone know the clock rates of processors used by the USA spaceship, apollo 11 in 1969 to land a man on moon ? Do you know the amount of precision and accuracy needed to do that?