The Alternative Energy Thread - Generators, Solar, UPS, Wind

[pantera]

bro any idea for the savings you usually get - specially from the first set-up (2013)

I can state a simple calculation which might help you understand. This system will only help charge the batteries from Solar during the day. During the day wapda will be used which is not actually a proper solar power system. Hence, this system will only assist in charging batteries.
However if you install MPPT 3KVA AXPERT in place of charge controller and APC UPS then your bill will significantly reduce. During the day, 600 Watts load will run completely on solar and the system will also charge batteries for the load shedding

[ghani007]

@pantera

i really appreciate your efforts, (i will defiantly say) to educate the new ppl here. inshaAllah i will contact u when require anything new.
(you dont remember but you guided me in PM some weeks ago, for connecting the panels in series upto the VOC of my MPPT controller, to save my cable cost . Thanks once again.)

@msalimsabir

if there wasnt any savings, defiantly i was not going to install my 2nd setup, in that case and i might shifted mine 1st into 2nd.
but i feel (my calculations) YES the savings is more in 2nd setup that is DC-System.
May be the ratio of savings in my SOLAR with UPS (setup-1) is low as compared to True-Hybrid-System (that i dont have any idea).
One thing keep in mind that, initially SOLAR is EXPENSIVE and returns are quite slow.
i never able to calculate my savings.. my calculation is JATKKA..
"" as i checked.... in a good-day-time (around-8 o'clock in morning), before solar connected to my UPS, it was giving me hardly 2.5 or 3 hours backup on batteries and THE END :).
But after connecting my solar panels (Wapda is switched off manually from 0800 till 1600) the last light on my UPS is blinking (showing it may give backup around 30mins/1hour more).

if i simplifies it..
Without solar back time is: 3 hours
With solar back time is: 8.5/9 hours (but i consider it around 6/7 hours)
(cause defiantly at my place the first hour in morning we use 3 fans and after that 1/2 fans)

And when i feel.. today my All fans are working so may be system will down soon, i keep Wapda switched ON, at that time the solar also working but its Amps (showing at run-time) on my charge controller decreased almost the half.

[ghani007]

I can state a simple calculation which might help you understand. This system will only help charge the batteries from Solar during the day. During the day wapda will be used which is not actually a proper solar power system. Hence, this system will only assist in charging batteries.
However if you install MPPT 3KVA AXPERT in place of charge controller and APC UPS then your bill will significantly reduce. During the day, 600 Watts load will run completely on solar and the system will also charge batteries for the load shedding

a very small question.... How?

<< Whats the science (of working behind a mppt-hybrid-invertor), that it may run my load as well as charging batteries. in my case i switched off the Wapda in day time. >>

[msalimsabir]

I can state a simple calculation which might help you understand. This system will only help charge the batteries from Solar during the day. During the day wapda will be used which is not actually a proper solar power system. Hence, this system will only assist in charging batteries.
However if you install MPPT 3KVA AXPERT in place of charge controller and APC UPS then your bill will significantly reduce. During the day, 600 Watts load will run completely on solar and the system will also charge batteries for the load shedding

ok but in one of the posts by ghani007, i was reading that the whole day output from a 100w panel was just 272 w so to meet continuous 600w load during the day, one has to install quite more panels in order to meet the load as well as charge the battery?? well this will not be a usual case as the sunlight varies, climate changes etc etc but one needs handsome investment.

[ghani007]

Please remember all my posts and data is my personal experience and those things i mentioned in from a web-site also endorse my point....

initially SOLAR is EXPENSIVE and returns are quite slow

but the peace of mind is more then anything. (H)

[pantera]

ok but in one of the posts by ghani007, i was reading that the whole day output from a 100w panel was just 272 w so to meet continuous 600w load during the day, one has to install quite more panels in order to meet the load as well as charge the battery?? well this will not be a usual case as the sunlight varies, climate changes etc etc but one needs handsome investment.

100W panels will produce around 80w output (80%). So, yes you will need more panels to meet the demand but not too much.

[msalimsabir]

Please remember all my posts and data is my personal experience and those things i mentioned in from a web-site also endorse my point....

initially SOLAR is EXPENSIVE and returns are quite slow

but the peace of mind is more then anything. (H)

yes sir; it is your's personal experience plus some references but we all learn from each other's experiences to move in correct direction.

[ghani007]

100W panels will produce around 80w output (80%). So, yes you will need more panels to meet the demand but not too much.

1.
is it for 0900 to 1500 hours continuously ? (as we receive the best result of solar, during these hours of a day)
or 80% is just the Maximum output for a time period during these (0900 to 1500) hours.

2.
80% is a theoretically or the practically?

sorry for the childish q's...
as i m not an electronic-person, just a simple user and always trying to findout the HOW,WHY, and IF... (H)

[msalimsabir]

any member having idea of the generators available in karachi market based on car engine?

[pantera]

1.
is it for 0900 to 1500 hours continuously ? (as we receive the best result of solar, during these hours of a day)
or 80% is just the Maximum output for a time period during these (0900 to 1500) hours.

2.
80% is a theoretically or the practically?

sorry for the childish q's...
as i m not an electronic-person, just a simple user and always trying to findout the HOW,WHY, and IF... (H)

Not a problem, Im always there to answer any questions put forward to me.

The best hours for Solar output is 9am-3pm and during this period our panels produce 85% output i.e is may-june which are very rough months for panels. I am not talking about any other panels here. And the results are backed by practical testing.

[mansor]

Not a problem, Im always there to answer any questions put forward to me.

The best hours for Solar output is 9am-3pm and during this period our panels produce 85% output i.e is may-june which are very rough months for panels. I am not talking about any other panels here. And the results are backed by practical testing.

boss kaya ap bata sakty hei as waqt local market may kon say panel achy hei , ya kon say panel leyney chaye
aur ups kon say achy hei mera load taqreban 700watts hei per mey 1000watt tak ka ups/inverter lena chata hoon

[cursedd]

@pantera

i am a DIY person.

1. Panel-Mono-100W x 6 + MPPT-CC-30Amps + APC-UPS-1400xl + Millet-Battery-105M x 2 .... Since 2013

2. Panel-Mono-100W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Narada 150Amp : DC System .... Since 2014

3. Panel-Mono-150W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Northstar 100Amp : DC System (for someone else) .... Few weeks back (2015)

i always got solar things from a same vendor of hall road, and for Batteries & UPS stuff i have other sources (may be not always cheap, but very reliable).

MONO vs Poly, have you found any difference in efficiencies of both?
Also , you are using your dc system in day or for the night backup?

[ghani007]

MONO vs Poly, have you found any difference in efficiencies of both?
Also , you are using your dc system in day or for the night backup?

as per my study...
different views about the MONO vs POLY
1. Poly is good for hot weather areas.
2. Mono is good for low light so good for low generations days
now choice is your, which one u prefer... i prefer MONO and all my used panels are MONO.

DC systems...
Panel-Mono-100W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Narada 150Amp : DC System .... Since 2014
----
I am using it for Night time only..
1-25Watts-DC-Fan ... in bedroom so almost working all night only
1-10Watts-DC-Light ... in bedroom so used around 1 or 2 hours mostly.
1-10Watts-DC-Light ... outside switched on in eve till morning
1 self created DC-LED-Bed-Light (very small light) working all night.

Panel-Mono-150W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Northstar 100Amp : DC System (for someone else) .... Few weeks back (2015)

This system i designed/calculated for 1-DC-Fan (25/30Watts-12Volts: working 20 to 24hours) and 1 or 2 Lights for the Evening..
it will be really good if one use 150Amps battery instead of 100Amps battery (i had my funds limitations).

---

@pantera

Thanks for reply

[pantera]

boss kaya ap bata sakty hei as waqt local market may kon say panel achy hei , ya kon say panel leyney chaye
aur ups kon say achy hei mera load taqreban 700watts hei per mey 1000watt tak ka ups/inverter lena chata hoon

The best panels out there are Canadian Solar (Cost and quality wise), Then Yingli is good too but original Yingli is hard to find in Pakistan, mostly lot or defected pieces are imported here of Yingli.
Then there is renesola and Jetion Solar which are chinese but work fine.

For inverter I'd suggest you go for 1 KVA AXPERT KS. Dont go for APC because it is not a Solar inverter, wont reap the results you require.

Regards,

Waqas Khan

[pantera]

as per my study...
different views about the MONO vs POLY
1. Poly is good for hot weather areas.
2. Mono is good for low light so good for low generations days
now choice is your, which one u prefer... i prefer MONO and all my used panels are MONO.

DC systems...
Panel-Mono-100W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Narada 150Amp : DC System .... Since 2014
----
I am using it for Night time only..
1-25Watts-DC-Fan ... in bedroom so almost working all night only
1-10Watts-DC-Light ... in bedroom so used around 1 or 2 hours mostly.
1-10Watts-DC-Light ... outside switched on in eve till morning
1 self created DC-LED-Bed-Light (very small light) working all night.

Panel-Mono-150W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Northstar 100Amp : DC System (for someone else) .... Few weeks back (2015)
----
This system i designed/calculated for 1-DC-Fan (25/30Watts-12Volts: working 20 to 24hours) and 1 or 2 Lights for the Evening..
it will be really good if one use 150Amps battery instead of 100Amps battery (i had my funds limitations).

----------------------

@pantera

Thanks for reply

The system is small and must work fine, DC systems only work on small systems because of their greater losses. People dont understand that and often ask me why dont you eliminate Wapda completely. Simple 2 word answer; 1) Wire losses 2) Battery Cost.

And yes you are right about mono and poly. Not much of a difference but mono is better in low light but since in Pakistan, low light is only in winter when load is already very low, so I would suggest go for Poly. Plus poly is more sturdy because of its structure. Once we dropped a panel off 1st floor, the glass over the panel shattered but the output was still around 80%

[ghani007]

The system is small and must work fine, DC systems only work on small systems because of their greater losses. People dont understand that and often ask me why dont you eliminate Wapda completely. Simple 2 word answer; 1) Wire losses 2) Battery Cost.

And yes you are right about mono and poly. Not much of a difference but mono is better in low light but since in Pakistan, low light is only in winter when load is already very low, so I would suggest go for Poly. Plus poly is more sturdy because of its structure. Once we dropped a panel off 1st floor, the glass over the panel shattered but the output was still around 80%

Agreed... DC is best for a Single Fan/Room system.
and if its with Solar plus Battery power(AH) properly calculated, i feel the Battery will last more then a AC-UPS-System (cause consumption of DC-Fans/Lights are much less then AC) and it wont go in a battery-drain-cycle after every one or two hours (like our normal ac-ups-systems).

"he glass over the panel shattered but the output was still around 80% :)"
just for info... is it possible to repair the panel having glass breakage? whats the best solution in this condition?

As you have a lot of Practical Experience of Solar-Hybrid-Systems, whenever you got time, please write a comparison *** feasibility of True-Hybrid (PV/Wapda + Axpert/infini/etc.) and Manual-Hybrid (PV/Wapda + CC + UPS) systems.

i am sure every Person (specially those thinking to go for solar) will get a lot of benefit from it.

Thanks in Advance.

Please

[msalimsabir]

100W panels will produce around 80w output (80%). So, yes you will need more panels to meet the demand but not too much.

thanks.

bro can you tell me the losses while converting from dc to ac. i mean the 100w panel will give dc 80 watts then what will be the ac output after inverter, based on your experience. Thanks.

[cursedd]

as per my study...
different views about the MONO vs POLY
1. Poly is good for hot weather areas.
2. Mono is good for low light so good for low generations days
now choice is your, which one u prefer... i prefer MONO and all my used panels are MONO.

DC systems...
Panel-Mono-100W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Narada 150Amp : DC System .... Since 2014
----
I am using it for Night time only..
1-25Watts-DC-Fan ... in bedroom so almost working all night only
1-10Watts-DC-Light ... in bedroom so used around 1 or 2 hours mostly.
1-10Watts-DC-Light ... outside switched on in eve till morning
1 self created DC-LED-Bed-Light (very small light) working all night.

Panel-Mono-150W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Northstar 100Amp : DC System (for someone else) .... Few weeks back (2015)
----
This system i designed/calculated for 1-DC-Fan (25/30Watts-12Volts: working 20 to 24hours) and 1 or 2 Lights for the Evening..
it will be really good if one use 150Amps battery instead of 100Amps battery (i had my funds limitations).

Thanks for the detailed reply.

So for the first system u are actually utilizing 400-500 watts in the whole night while actually u have total of 1800watts (150amp x 12V) which seems yes the load can be increased keeping in mind the discharge rate.

Now for your second system, did u or the person u had installed for found it feasible to run all day? and can the load be increased ? if the loss in wires should be kept as low as possible

[pantera]

Agreed... DC is best for a Single Fan/Room system.
and if its with Solar plus Battery power(AH) properly calculated, i feel the Battery will last more then a AC-UPS-System (cause consumption of DC-Fans/Lights are much less then AC) and it wont go in a battery-drain-cycle after every one or two hours (like our normal ac-ups-systems).

"he glass over the panel shattered but the output was still around 80% :)"
just for info... is it possible to repair the panel having glass breakage? whats the best solution in this condition?

As you have a lot of Practical Experience of Solar-Hybrid-Systems, whenever you got time, please write a comparison *** feasibility of True-Hybrid (PV/Wapda + Axpert/infini/etc.) and Manual-Hybrid (PV/Wapda + CC + UPS) systems.

i am sure every Person (specially those thinking to go for solar) will get a lot of benefit from it.

Thanks in Advance.

Please

Yes I would definitely do that when I get time. At the moment I am trying to make a small testimonial video of our clients, their experiences and their systems. This will profoundly help everyone since most people lack confidence in firms providing Solar because of a bad family or friend experience with Solar. I am also trying to interview people with above mentioned 'Manual Hybrid' or as I like to call it 'Desi Solar' to reflect their response and sort of compile to give you guys a comprehensive comparison.

[ghani007]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

So for the first system u are actually utilizing 400-500 watts in the whole night while actually u have total of 1800watts (150amp x 12V) which seems yes the load can be increased keeping in mind the discharge rate.

Now for your second system, did u or the person u had installed for found it feasible to run all day? and can the load be increased ? if the loss in wires should be kept as low as possible

---

First of all pls clear urself....
Never use the 100% of battery, as u calculated 150ah x 12v = 1800w

---

So for the first system u are actually utilizing 400-500 watts in the whole night while actually u have total of 1800watts (150amp x 12V) which seems yes the load can be increased keeping in mind the discharge rate.

Panel-Mono-100W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Narada 150Amp : DC System .... Since 2014
i did not calculate it upto that much level... just a JATKA Calculations...
Almost every evening when i able to check (after sunset) i found my battery is full, same as 12.7v/12.9v (and its same since i installed my Narada-150Ah in Mar-2015).

May be also help you in some of your calculation...
My 12-Volts-DC-Consumption at night is around 3Amps per hour (fan+light).. and that is around 36Amps in a night maximum,
and as i have 2 x 12Volts-100Watts (=200W) panels are giving me that on daily basis...
even if in a rainy day when production will be defiantly much low, i wont have any issues.

---

Now for your second system, did u or the person u had installed for found it feasible to run all day? and can the load be increased ? if the loss in wires should be kept as low as possible

Panel-Mono-150W x 2 + PWM-CC-30Amps + Northstar 100Amp : DC System (for someone else) .... Few weeks back (2015)

if u read my first email about this system...
i write it in detail that, this is for some place i may not be able to go and check (i just draw/handover a diagram of all for electrician) , so no idea about its working till now...
as you know... No News is a Good News.... hopefully its working fine over there.

for the control of losses:
i used 16mm pure copper cable (shop person told me.. its battery cable) 13-yard from panels to charge controller... (the MC4 connectors were soldered on this cable without any cable-cutting)
and for inner side/load wiring i again used a good quality copper wire i forgotten its mm (shop person told me.. its heavy speaker/WOOFER cable)