Myths regarding 660cc Cars

[huzaifa.haroon]

Thanks for bringing some facts into the equation.

Also something that people often overlook is the power to weight ratio. A Mehran made with Dalda tin is much lighter than a 660cc JDM. A 2010 Mira weights between 750-820 kgs depending on the grade. Now that give the Mira a power to weight ratio of about 0.025.

Does anyone know how much a Mehran weighs?

A ton lol!

[huzaifa.haroon]

these are peak figures. the 660cc do have barney stinson(wait for IT) like characteristics. can u post torque at 2000 rpm for all these or complete torque curve diagram??

You bring Mehran's torque curve I'll bring 660s torque curve!
And while considering performance always peak figures are counted!

[Xulfiqar]

You bring Mehran's torque curve I'll bring 660s torque curve!
And while considering performance always peak figures are counted!

ok - lets take an example I drive everyday and its older version too.

I drive a mercedes benz E320 with the M112 V6 engine - its a 3200 cc V6 - it outs about 215 hp at 5700 rpm and twists about 232 lb/ft max torque between 3000-4800 rpm.

before benz made this - they had the 3.2 litre straight six engine called the M104 - it produced 220 hp at 5700 rpm and twists about 229 ft/lb at 3750-5500 rpm.

Both engines can be found in the W210 chassis E class - the 104 ended in the 97 production run and in start of 98 they put the 112 engine in the E320 badge cars.

The V6 has more usable power at mid range rpm (like overtaking with passengers loaded up or pulling a trailer etc). The M104 needs at least 1000 more rpm to apply the same sort of grunt.

The straight six feels more powerful because it sounds fantastic, is the most smoothest engine you will ever experience and the "feel" comes from the high rev.

OTOH - the V6 doesnt sound all that great as the I6 but pulls quicker earlier in the rev range (it pulls like a turbocharged diesel if you want to assume) - this makes for more usable power that the car will usually experience. Whilst cruising the gearbox does not kickdown if you press the accelerator even 50% - the engine produces enough torque at mid range to pass vehicles swiftly. The I6 version of the E320 will kickdown to get into its high rpm range with the same amount of accelerator input, it then feels like its pulling faster but thats because your rpm are higher.

[usman_arooq2]

You bring Mehran's torque curve I'll bring 660s torque curve!
And while considering performance always peak figures are counted!

cars that are have 200hp more than tesla get beaten by it in acceleration, because its peak torque is available at 0 rpm(electric motor). peak figures aren't always right.

[huzaifa.haroon]

cars that are have 200hp more than tesla get beaten by it in acceleration, because its peak torque is available at 0 rpm(electric motor). peak figures aren't always right.

I have mentioned in my other post that electric motors produce high torque at a very low R.P.M which certainly petrol engines cant!

[huzaifa.haroon]

ok - lets take an example I drive everyday and its older version too.

I drive a mercedes benz E320 with the M112 V6 engine - its a 3200 cc V6 - it outs about 215 hp at 5700 rpm and twists about 232 lb/ft max torque between 3000-4800 rpm.

before benz made this - they had the 3.2 litre straight six engine called the M104 - it produced 220 hp at 5700 rpm and twists about 229 ft/lb at 3750-5500 rpm.

Both engines can be found in the W210 chassis E class - the 104 ended in the 97 production run and in start of 98 they put the 112 engine in the E320 badge cars.

The V6 has more usable power at mid range rpm (like overtaking with passengers loaded up or pulling a trailer etc). The M104 needs at least 1000 more rpm to apply the same sort of grunt.

The straight six feels more powerful because it sounds fantastic, is the most smoothest engine you will ever experience and the "feel" comes from the high rev.

OTOH - the V6 doesnt sound all that great as the I6 but pulls quicker earlier in the rev range (it pulls like a turbocharged diesel if you want to assume) - this makes for more usable power that the car will usually experience. Whilst cruising the gearbox does not kickdown if you press the accelerator even 50% - the engine produces enough torque at mid range to pass vehicles swiftly. The I6 version of the E320 will kickdown to get into its high rpm range with the same amount of accelerator input, it then feels like its pulling faster but thats because your rpm are higher.

That all happens because of torque!

[usman_arooq2]

I have mentioned in my other post that electric motors produce high torque at a very low R.P.M which certainly petrol engines cant!

but one kind of petrol engine can have more torque at low and mid rpm range(where an engine is driven most of its life) than the other. 59/3000 vs 65/4000, i'd stick to 59 and shift earlier.

[Xulfiqar]

That all happens because of torque!

yes my point exactly, more usable torque, the problem with 660 kei engine is that it does not have usable torque at low rpm.

[huzaifa.haroon]

yes my point exactly, more usable torque, the problem with 660 kei engine is that it does not have usable torque at low rpm.

Why the hell are you comparing 660cc with a Mercedes 3.2 ltr engine?
The turbo version has enough torque , its a small engine and the car is small and its a perfect match , specially the CVT and Manual transmission.
Not the auto version

[usman_arooq2]

Why the hell are you comparing 660cc with a Mercedes 3.2 ltr engine?
The turbo version has enough torque , its a small engine and the car is small and its a perfect match , specially the CVT and Manual transmission.
Not the auto version

turbo versions are rare, with low resale and overheating problem is common with em on long routes. turbo mira(coure shape) tw ma ny b rakhi ti but fuel expenses were equal to gli 1.6.

[huzaifa.haroon]

turbo versions are rare, with low resale and overheating problem is common with em on long routes. turbo mira(coure shape) tw ma ny b rakhi ti but fuel expenses were equal to gli 1.6.

Yar pata nahi ye overheating wali afwahain kahan se peda ho gae hain!
If one buys a totalled car with a broken repaired radiator and car overheats , then its not the problem of car!

[ZainMahdi]

Yar pata nahi ye overheating wali afwahain kahan se peda ho gae hain!
If one buys a totalled car with a broken repaired radiator and car overheats , then its not the problem of car!

I think he is talking about the turbo unit overheating, not the engine.

[huzaifa.haroon]

I think he is talking about the turbo unit overheating, not the engine.

How can the turbo overheat lol

[ZainMahdi]

How can the turbo overheat lol

It can overheat in a high performance demanding situation, when the turbo is in constant boost. The only solution is to install an aftermarket heavy duty intercooler.

[huzaifa.haroon]

It can overheat in a high performance demanding situation, when the turbo is in constant boost. The only solution is to install an aftermarket heavy duty intercooler.

It has built in intercooler , but as per my knowledge it cooles air so that more air compresses!
And it is meant for constant boosting.
It does not overheat , the engineers aint so stupid

[Xulfiqar]

Why the hell are you comparing 660cc with a Mercedes 3.2 ltr engine?
The turbo version has enough torque , its a small engine and the car is small and its a perfect match , specially the CVT and Manual transmission.
Not the auto version

I am giving you an example - im not comparing the two - use common sense - the comparison being given is between two engines of the same displacement produced by mercedes benz. One has torque in the mid range and one has torque in the peak range.

The mid range torque engine is more useful in everyday life and runs for incredible mileages (mine is nearing 288,000 kms and still is a running champion)

I have taken a POS 0.66 litre kei car on the highways and punjab motorway in Pakistan - they were 5 passengers in total plus luggage, the turbo was shot after our journey and the engine oil was cooked beyond usage - In the end the repair cost plus fuel plus irritation plus wastage of time replacing the POS turbo and sorting out the engine and transmission were far more more expensive than if we had simply used a corolla/corona/civic/accord

When I have a requirement of transport I dont try to wing a situation - e.g. if I want to drag a 5 ton load I wont tie it behind my sedan, I will get the truck out and tie it up to it.

I repair automatic transmissions - and have been doing that in Pakistan too, the CVT you are so praising is not exactly economical when it comes to repairing. and the ever so loving low rpm that you claim is not quite useful because you may cruise at no load for a short distance (the CVT will go into max overdrive) but because your engine it gutless at low rpm the ECU is programmed to force the CVT to go to quite a lot of underdrive in order to raise rpm and get going again.

You are in love with 0.66 litre kei cars - I cannot change that. The fact of the matter is that you will overlook all its failures to justify it. I know its useless to argue over the internet because 99% of Pakistani drivers think that spare parts mean replacement (of unknown origin) hard parts and consumables, whilst all other parts are not considered spare parts (like finishing, drivetrain, HVAC, safety etc - and 100% of the times Im pointed to "scrap market") - Im not a scrap market person and never was even in Pakistan.

[Xulfiqar]

How can the turbo overheat lol

Ever seen engines under full boost all the time in automotive purpose? Its not simple as you think - if you are constantly loading up the turbocharger you end up with a lot of heat in the exhaust manifold which can lead to severe damage - fretting of the exhaust manifold/engine surface, warping, engine lube burning out - its a reality. Very high EGT is not good.

The turbo may be spinning all the time - its not doing anything but when the engine comes under load the engine produces more heat - good for the turbo, it spools faster but you cannot keep this going forever. The kei engines are not meant for highway purpose or even urban purpose infact, they are best suited for extra urban purpose (like between eidgah and tower karachi between 12noon-3 pm anyday of the year)

when I was driving the kei on the highway to idle down the turbo on cruise I had to drive at 60-70 km/h - this is deadly on a highway where average speed is 100 km/h. Any load input would require boost assistance as the engine had very low torque itself unassisted.

[hamid700]

hello all and happy new year ..

well i just wanted to add my experience regarding 660cc, i have Mira manual transmission 2009 model, previously i had cars with bigger engines and i was somewhat doubtful for 660 but its been a year Alhumdulillah... great experience so far had to change clutch + pressure plate cost me around 7.5 k ...
car is good did long routes as well and drove to hilly areas yeah on height gives u little trouble (if loaded) otherwise its a perfect car with mileage of 18+ in city without AC and 20+ on long (with manual transmission). It has amazing cabin space, factory tinted glass very nice drive and spare parts are available. But as most of the brothers here described that most of the cars being imported are accidental, i guess its true i had to search a lot for non-accidental with my mechanic an hardly found a car 100% or 95% original at the end had to pay more by importing one through my friend but its clean
Over all i am very glad for the choice i made Alhumdulillah.

Thanks

[asadriazchoudhry]

Can anybody tell why 660 cars are always imported by KPK people or why their identities are used for importing these vehicles?

[commando282]

Well, I have come across a lot of people who say " yaar 660 cc engine waali gaari nhn chahiye it's underpowered, small and bla bla ". I myself have two 660 cc's , one 1000cc and and 1 1300cc car. I have driven SUVs and other cars with big engines.
So, I have come across a few myths that people have regarding 660 cc cars. It's just my option and people can disagree to that.

1. 660 cc engine is underpowered : more Cubic Centimeters do not always mean the car is more powerful. Daihatsu Mira, for instance , has 58 bhp while Suzuki Mehran and Suzuki cultus have 35 and 55 HP respectively. So, a 660 Mira is a lot more powerful than 800cc Mehran and 1000cc cultus.

2. 660 cc is not always fuel efficient: To some extent it's right, obviously a 660cc driven at higher RPMs will not give you any better mileage but a 660 cc car driven at lower RPM can obviously be more fuel efficient than a 1300cc with same the RPM , other factors remain constant.

3. 660cc can't run on long routes: That's not true, I have driven so many cars, but it's just people's perception that smaller cars can't run on long routes. I have done something like 500 kms in one interval. The only problem I had with any car on long routes was Suzuki cultus. It had heating issues whereas, 660's didn't come up with any issues.

4. Smaller cars, road grip issue : These dinkies can't be compared with Honda civic when it comes to road grip, but they are surely better than my 2007 corolla interms of road grip, believe me. But these cars are safer too with ABS and others safety features.

5. Almost all the 660's are accidented when they come to Pakistan : Nope, not true. Some are accidented badly while others are totally genuine. Well to me, it doesn't matter if a part or two are changed or repaired due to some minor accidents because I pay lower price and the car that I get is obviously better than many new Pakistani cars.
If the car is totally TOTALED ( idk how if that's the word used for fully accidented cars ) then we should refrain from it but if it has minor repairing done then we can have it. In normal life you don't actually think about that as far as the car is mechanically sound.

Agreed on no 3 point l I had same experience

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