PAF F-16C Block 52 with CFT

[VCheng]

I think you should discuss this on defence.pk. I know a little about the codes, but the info you're providing is quite new and thus would make a very interesting discussion over there.

Thank you.

I think we are having a great discussion here too.

[VCheng]

I must add this that our engineers and staff managed to highly modify the old Mig 19 and Mig 21 frame and thus the later variant is STILL in our service and being flown as interceptor.

Old style conventional airframes are a totally different story. Even with the Kamra facilities, we are now being forced to retire the Mirages simply because we cannot get the spares needed to keep them flying safely. We have not been able to develop the metallurgical facilities and skills need to make those spares ourselves for just the airframes. Engines are at a whole another level of complex metallurgy and fabrication, let alone design. Even the Chinese are way behind in this area.

And using ancient planes like MiG 19s and MiG 21s as interceptors only exposes brave men and women to undue risk. They would be blown out of the skies in a real war these days if it were to occur. I am sorry to put it bluntly like that. (I have lost family members and friends too.)

I think we are highly under estimating our personal and their capabilities, our staff was involved in making a 4th generation multi role fighter and i am sure they would know a thing or two about inner workings of an aircraft.

Knowing a "thing or two" is enough to keep a fleet operating safely and effectively, yes, but nowhere near the level that is claimed. I think that the tendency is to wildly exaggerate the capabilities to maintain a public persona of invincibility.

Vcheng i enjoy your debates and respect your views but i think we are under estimating the IQ of our Airforce boys and girls here

Thank you. I agree with you that PAF personnel are absolutely top notch. However, the sad reality is that they can do a job only as good as their technical know-how will allow them. Let us be realistic in assessing what that level is.

Yes it is true that American F-16s are bugged, but that doesnt mean that America will stop these jets on the ground on the hour of need.

Why doesn't it mean that? Please don't be so naive. The bottom line is that those jets will serve the national interest of the USA first and foremost, not Pakistan's. If it is in the US interest to allow us full or partial use of their capabilities, we will be able to use them, and not otherwise.

There are procedures and documentations on the place, all technical aspects have to be discussed and Americana arms reputation is on stack.

Sure. Do you really think the USA will care more about its "reputation" over keeping its prized technologies secret or over national interest?

On the other hand backbone of PAF is not F-16 any more. It is shifted t JF-17s and F-20s, all those F-16s which were received in 2010 or so are just bonus planes.

I agree with you that the shift to other platforms is a good one, and if implemented correctly, will yield great dividends further down the line. That time is not today, and will likely take at least another decade or may be even more.

[VCheng]

@baqai

IQ has nothing to do with complex electronics. While PAF has done a commendable job manufacturing its own spare parts and undertaking some indigenous small scale manufacturing, that can never be compared with cracking sensitive and proprietary source code and understanding complex electronics. If we could do that, we wouldn't need to rely on various US spare parts such as radars and complex guidance systems etc. Heck we could have even built our own F-16

Good points, and fairly represented. Thanks.

[VCheng]

please search for "f16 MLU manaul" on goole, you will find loads of websites, some even offer to download for free, almost all above technical discussion is covered

Here is a good place:

F-16 MLU Manual Part 1

F-16 MLU Manual Part 2

[airomerix]

A simple question to VCheng .

If US can deny us codes for our F-16 every 24 hours, then HOW the HECK our F-16s kept flying from 1991-2005 [Sanction Period]? Why did US kept on supplying us CODES after banning even the 9mm pistol bullets?

US banned Pakistan from all military sales, emborgoed our ordered F-16s, stopped the delivery of already made F-16s, weapons and spares. :S

Altough the navigation system of viper has not changed much. //MOD EDIT: Comment removed.//
Now please donnot tell us that Block 15 and Block 52 and different navigation mechanism. :

[VCheng]

A simple question to VCheng .

If US can deny us codes for our F-16 every 24 hours, then HOW the HECK our F-16s kept flying from 1991-2005 [Sanction Period]? Why did US kept on supplying us CODES after banning even the 9mm pistol bullets?

US banned Pakistan from all military sales, emborgoed our ordered F-16s, stopped the delivery of already made F-16s, weapons and spares. :S

Altough the navigation system of viper has not changed much. //MOD EDIT: Comment removed.//
Now please donnot tell us that Block 15 and Block 52 and different navigation mechanism. :

A simple answer:

It is not a fly/no fly situation. Various levels of degraded capability are possible for the various systems on the aircraft without the end user being aware of it, and whatever suits US policy goals reigns supreme.

Now was that too hard to understand?

[airomerix]

A simple answer:

It is not a fly/no fly situation. Various levels of degraded capability are possible for the various systems on the aircraft without the end user being aware of it, and whatever suits US policy goals reigns supreme.

Now was that too hard to understand?

Iam sorry Sir but you have totally lost it.

It was somehow better to leave this discussion rather then proving youself to be avoincs expert. Hence it has been proved that people sitting in Air Head Quarters definitely know more then you.

End of discussion.

[VCheng]

Please do note, once again, for those with short attention spans: Please remain ON TOPIC. Thank you.

(This ALSO means that the content of the post should be discussed, not the poster.)

[airomerix]

A simple answer:

It is not a fly/no fly situation. Various levels of degraded capability are possible for the various systems on the aircraft without the end user being aware of it, and whatever suits US policy goals reigns supreme.

Now was that too hard to understand?

Im sorry sir but you have totally lost it.

It was better to leave the discussion earlier then to prove youself to be an avoincs expert. Hence it is proved that the people sitting in Air Head Quarters certainly know more then you.

What good is a warbird that cannot fly until codes arrive from the USA every day?

However, none of them can fly a combat mission unless programmed with codes

[Ahmad357]

i asked why my posts are being deleted. and that post too was deleted. WHAT THE HELL?

[Bad_Cheetah]

9 pages in and im still not sure whats going on.
for a layman like me, could anyone of you please tell that are these planes really OUR planes or not?

can we fly combat missions in these, according to our wish?

do we need codes coming in on daily basis, from the US to fly these jets, be it a normal tactical flight or a combat mission?

[malik593]

Vcheng is right

[malik593]

Vcheng is wrong

[airomerix]

9 pages in and im still not sure whats going on.
for a layman like me, could anyone of you please tell that are these planes really OUR planes or not?

can we fly combat missions in these, according to our wish?

do we need codes coming in on daily bases, from the US to fly these jets, be it a normal tactical flight or a combat mission?

It was concluded but since my posts are constantly being deleted so you should listen to what VCheng has to say.

First he says

What good is a warbird that cannot fly until codes arrive from the USA every day?

then

However, none of them can fly a combat mission unless programmed with codes

Then finally he concludes

[I]

It is not a fly/no fly situation. Various levels of degraded capability are possible for the various systems on the aircraft without the end user being aware of it,
[/I]

Which means that he has accepted that US has no control over our aircraft but several capability limitations "can" be there which can these aircrafts ineffective agains US. Who no one has denied on this forum.

Now i know this post will be deleted aswell. And iam not interested in arguing any further.

Sir [VCheng] with due respect, by deleting posts you are not proving anything but you're misusing your MoD ship. I have a right to say too. And my previous posts just highlighted that people sitting in Air Head Quarters are smart enough to know whats F-16 all about.

[airomerix]

My 4th post has been deleted. And iam sorry to say this is such an immature act. :S

[Sohaib93]

A question to VCheng:
If we possess one of those chips in an F-16 ; can we make a clone without understanding fully the architecture of the chip?
I think we can and classified programing languages can be understood too and so we can RE the whole thing and install our own system ?
Isn't it possible ?

[VCheng]

A question to VCheng:
If we possess one of those chips in an F-16 ; can we make a clone without understanding fully the architecture of the chip?
I think we can and classified programing languages can be understood too and so we can RE the whole thing and install our own system ?
Isn't it possible ?

It is not just one chip. It is a series of computers working in parallel with complex programs, with astronomic numbers of variations. Creating a new system from scratch would perhaps be more achievable than reverse engineering something of that level of complexity.

From the link already posted, take a look at these two pages to get some idea of what is involved:

[Bad_Cheetah]

i wanted to read the reply which airomerix posted against my queries.

@ airomerix, if you could reply to it again, yeah?

[airomerix]

9 pages in and im still not sure whats going on.
for a layman like me, could anyone of you please tell that are these planes really OUR planes or not?

can we fly combat missions in these, according to our wish?

do we need codes coming in on daily basis, from the US to fly these jets, be it a normal tactical flight or a combat mission?

We can totally fly our F-16s on our own.

US blocked our Military sale in 1991, we still flew F-16s till 2005 without any US assistence and shot down 2 different aircraft inbetween. 1 in Kargil War and one UAV in 2002 Indo-Pak Standoff.

The problem which PAF faced was only of spares and ugrades which our F-16s direly needed.

Now the question is, why didnt US blocked those codes etc to stop us to "fly" those F-16s back in 1991, even if we can fly those F-16s without those codes then why didnt the absense of those codes paralysed us from shooting down IAF aircraft in the above mentioned encounters.

So we can conclude that we can use our F-16s where ever and when ever we want. Why our F-16s are ineffective agains USA, thats another debate.

No?

[Bad_Cheetah]

We can totally fly our F-16s on our own.

US blocked our Military sale in 1991, we still flew F-16s till 2005 without any US assistence and shot down 2 different aircraft inbetween. 1 in Kargil War and one UAV in 2002 Indo-Pak Standoff.

The problem which PAF faced was only of spares and ugrades which our F-16s direly needed.

Now the question is, why didnt US blocked those codes etc to stop us to "fly" those F-16s back in 1991, even if we can fly those F-16s without those codes then why didnt the absense of those codes paralysed us from shooting down IAF aircraft in the above mentioned encounters.

So we can conclude that we can use our F-16s where ever and when ever we want. Why our F-16s are ineffective agains USA, thats another debate.

No?

so what you're saying is that the planes are actually OURS, and we can fly combat missions on them according to our personal will, right?,
but obv we cant attack superior powers with them because they would shoot down these planes, and have no other way of stopping us other than just shooting us down? ( refering to the codes and kill switches here )