PAF JF-17 to participate in Paris Airshow

[airomerix]

Of course, that is good to know.

What avionics package do the first JF-17s have for Pakistan, and has there been a successful demonstration of BVR engagement capability so far?

Currently Jf-17 has not so hi-tech Chinese avionics suite. Its Fire Control KLj-7 radar made by CACTIC is not so hi-tech either. Its not a synthetic aperture radar either which PAF requires.

That is why PAF was very keen in installing French avionics and radar system for example Grifo 7, MICA AAM etc. The deal was spoiled by India after the Airo India 2010 happened when France was given a hope for winning its MRCA deal.

Other then AMRAAM, PAF does not have any other BVR air-to-air missile as for now. Chinese SD-10 is currently in the pipline but it has yet to achieve full certification and requires some improvements with its radar signature.

Lets see what turns out.

[VCheng]

Currently Jf-17 has not so hi-tech Chinese avionics suite. Its Fire Control KLj-7 radar made by CACTIC is not so hi-tech either. Its not a synthetic aperture radar either which PAF requires.

That is why PAF was very keen in installing French avionics and radar system for example Grifo 7, MICA AAM etc. The deal was spoiled by India after the Airo India 2010 happened when France was given a hope for winning its MRCA deal.

Other then AMRAAM, PAF does not have any other BVR air-to-air missile as for now. Chinese SD-10 is currently in the pipline but it has yet to achieve full certification and requires some improvements with its radar signature.

Lets see what turns out.

Thank you for such an even-handed evaluation. I am sure that with further development over several years, it will be possible to make the JF-17 a much better plane.

[attie4]

This is taken straight out of wiki.

The JF-17 is expected to cost approximately US$15 million per unit <sup id="cite_ref-JF-17_Thunder.2C_PAC_Kamra_2-1" class="reference">[3]</sup> and the Pakistan Air Force has a confirmed order for 150 JF-17's, which may increase to 250 aircraft.<sup id="cite_ref-dailytimes.com.pk_14-0" class="reference">[15]</sup> It was reported in 2008 that Azerbaijan <sup id="cite_ref-iwpr-net_15-0" class="reference">[16]</sup> and Zimbabwe had placed orders for the aircraft and nine other countries, including Bangladesh, Myanmar, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco, Nigeria, Sri Lanka and Algeria were showing interest.<sup id="cite_ref-16" class="reference"></sup><sup id="cite_ref-defenseindustrydaily.com_article_17-0" class="reference"></sup>
We should be proud boys.

[Ahmad357]

It is because the Chinese products we get here in Pakistan for daily use are C Grade. A mediocker or upper mediocker cannot even think of affording top of the line quality Chinese products.

If we talk about Chinese aviation industry, yes it always had quality issues. Like our F-6s required overhauling after every 500 flying hours. Where as our "old" F-16s require over hauling well after 8000 flying hours.

As for JF-17. It has some issues aswell. Starting with its RD-93 engine which is "under powered" like the GLi/Xli we get here.

It has a maximum thrust of 19,100lb while Jf-17 weights 9000kg with external stores. Which makes its TWR to 0.9 which means that JF-17 CANNOT ACCELERATE vertically.

On the other hand, the F-16As we have, they have a weight of 12000kg with external stores and maximum thrust of 22000lbs while having a TWR of 1.1 which enables the F-16 to perform a full array of combat maneuvers.

Next issue lies in its airframe design. It is not capable of pulling 9Gs like the F-16 due to flaws in its fuselage. The maximum Gs which a JF-17 can pull is 6.5gs which is fair enough in todays BVR warfare.

There are certain more issues which are pretty technical to discuss here.

Absolutely correct airomerix! great info!
I would also like to add that chinese items are graded A, B, C, D, E, F and G and not only A B and C. What we get in pakistan are barely D or E grade items.
The top graded equipment/items are top notch and second to none.
Even boeing is manufacturing an array of equipment for their aircrafts in china.

[mani1]

Correct me if I am wrong but without BVR, the JF-17s are useless? In a war, wouldn't our planes be shot down by Indian BVR equipped planes like Su-something before our pilots can even see them?

[vickeyvickey85]

Export version must be diff from the pne paf is using never sell the best tech than the parent user.guys dont rely on wiki mostly indians are there to alter the text agaisnt pakistan.jf:17 is very versitle jet almost equal to f:16 its goes upto 8.5g+.yes it has some flaws but we got the new indeginous jet with help of china and we can devloped it futher thats good move we must not rely on forign equipment let finish this trend now.look at tejas ******** design see jf:17 intake same like f:35.many samller countries ahve shown intrest but right now major issue is with engines becoz russia is not going sell rd93 enginer anymore after 500 in numbers and second engine produce some smoke and paf is also not satisfied with it.at zuhai airshow jf:17 looks very awsome.good luck to paf and their indeginour programs

[vickeyvickey85]

Jf:17 come with bvr and it has better radar than f:16 blk50/52+.klj 7 is cool radar.remeber old paf jets are far behind jf:17 in terms of avionic suit.new f:16 can be called equal to jf:17 thunder in term of suit.

[Ahmad357]

Correct me if I am wrong but without BVR, the JF-17s are useless? In a war, wouldn't our planes be shot down by Indian BVR equipped planes like Su-something before our pilots can even see them?

who told you jf-17 doesnt have bvr capability bro!?

[mani1]

who told you jf-17 doesnt have bvr capability bro!?

I read an article somewhere that only BVR capable planes Pakistan has are the latest F-16s. Even the older block A/B lack BVR

[VCheng]

I read an article somewhere that only BVR capable planes Pakistan has are the latest F-16s. Even the older block A/B lack BVR

As has been mentioned earlier, to date no JF-17 has successfully demonstrated engaging or destroying a BVR target, although development is supposedly happening quite actively.

[v9sDEF]

A PAF pilot was seen in the Zuhai airshow wearing a SD-10 badge on his overalls, meaning that SD-10 has been tested and deployed on the JF-17, so yes the JF-17 is BVR capable.

As for the avionics, PAF is completely satisfied with them. PAF chose to stick with the existing avionics package(The ECM is very advanced) and the Radar because it met or exceeded the capabilities of the western systems (like the Thales RC400) that they were looking at previously. We have started to manufacture the radar and some avionics too!

JF-17 is going to improve further. Currently, another variant of JF-17 is being tested which has some stealthy features implemented (to reduce RCS).

The RCS (radar cross section) of the JF-17 is classified, but according to a very reliable source (go to defence.pk, look up nabil_05) our latest block-52 f-16's have a hard time detecting them .

TWR is above one without full weapon load, but i'm not exactly sure with full weapon load.

When i have time, i'll put in a few tidbits again

The JF-17 may not be as advanced as the latest f-16's but the important thing is that we now have the know-how on how to build planes.

[v9sDEF]

I read an article somewhere that only BVR capable planes Pakistan has are the latest F-16s. Even the older block A/B lack BVR

They're going through MLU right now. They will be BVR capable soon.

[nickatnite]

This J-17 reminds me too much of the Soviet era MiG17 with over the top make up. Anyone?.

[v9sDEF]

This J-17 reminds me too much of the Soviet era MiG17 with over the top make up. Anyone?.

No, you're thinking about the LCA.

[MominHaq]

This J-17 reminds me too much of the Soviet era MiG17 with over the top make up. Anyone?.

I like your sense of humor....

[airomerix]

Export version must be diff from the pne paf is using never sell the best tech than the parent user.guys dont rely on wiki mostly indians are there to alter the text agaisnt pakistan.jf:17 is very versitle jet almost equal to f:16 its goes upto 8.5g+.yes it has some flaws but we got the new indeginous jet with help of china and we can devloped it futher thats good move we must not rely on forign equipment let finish this trend now.look at tejas ******** design see jf:17 intake same like f:35.many samller countries ahve shown intrest but right now major issue is with engines becoz russia is not going sell rd93 enginer anymore after 500 in numbers and second engine produce some smoke and paf is also not satisfied with it.at zuhai airshow jf:17 looks very awsome.good luck to paf and their indeginour programs

I like your patriotism but Sir jee, having an intake like F-35 will not make JF-17 and 5th generation fighter. Plus its awsome looks are of no use too. I frankly find F-22 Raptor ugly but it does not matter.

[airomerix]

Correct me if I am wrong but without BVR, the JF-17s are useless? In a war, wouldn't our planes be shot down by Indian BVR equipped planes like Su-something before our pilots can even see them?

JF-17s will surely be equipped with SD-10 BVR missile but it will some time. It is correct that all these years PAF lacked BVR and the reason why our F-16s were not allowed to engage with IAF fighters in Kargil was "BVR".

IAF's Mirage 2000s and Mig-29s both had BVR missiles thus our vipers could not engage them.
JF-17s are meant to replace to our multirole platform which will cater the all the roles currently fulfilled by 4 different types for example

Mirage 3-----Attack
Mirage 5-----Air Superiority/Strike/Naval warfare
F-7P--------Interceptor
F-7PG-------Multirole
A-5---------Visual Day attacker.

With BVR, there is no point of getting JF-17 when our F-7PGs can fire WVR missiles too.

[airomerix]

A PAF pilot was seen in the Zuhai airshow wearing a SD-10 badge on his overalls, meaning that SD-10 has been tested and deployed on the JF-17, so yes the JF-17 is BVR capable.

Our JF-17s are not operational with SD-10s as for yet. There is alot to do before equipping them with BVR, which inculdes training our pilots for BVR, logistics support etc

As for the avionics, PAF is completely satisfied with them. PAF chose to stick with the existing avionics package(The ECM is very advanced) and the Radar because it met or exceeded the capabilities of the western systems (like the Thales RC400) that they were looking at previously. We have started to manufacture the radar and some avionics too!

Disagreed. The reason we were looking for Western radar and avionics was because PAF was not satisfied with what Chinese were providing us. PAF always demands customization for the hardware we purchase from China. Same formula was applied to our A-5s and F-7s.

RC-400 is more advanced then KLj-7 by all means. It has a range of about 110km as opposed to the range of 75km of Klj-7. But this is just one main difference.

JF-17 is going to improve further. Currently, another variant of JF-17 is being tested which has some stealthy features implemented (to reduce RCS).

The RCS (radar cross section) of the JF-17 is classified, but according to a very reliable source (go to defence.pk, look up nabil_05) our latest block-52 f-16's have a hard time detecting them .

Its too good to be true I guess. Did he mentioned the range? BTW iam member there with the user name "airomerix" aswell as on pakistanidefenceforum.com and f-16.net

TWR is above one without full weapon load, but i'm not exactly sure with full weapon load.

Disagreed Regarding JF-17's TWR, according to PAC's brochure which started this whole debate about its G limitations, its NTOW (with two wingtip missiles and rails included) is 20,000 lbs and a thrust of 19,200 lbs gives it a TWR of 0.96 in that configuration. But then TWR would vary in all sorts of configurations, e.g. only half the fuel with couple of BVR and WVRAAMs each, and its TWR would be considerably >1. And it all depends on the requirements of the actual mission.

When i have time, i'll put in a few tidbits again

I will anxiously wait

The JF-17 may not be as advanced as the latest f-16's but the important thing is that we now have the know-how on how to build planes.

This is what makes us proud!

[VCheng]

Now THIS is a great discussion!

[BMW7Series]

wow lovely