Radiator Fan effects cooling

[muneebgillani]

Hello,
I am an owner of toyota yaris 2002 model which is not genuine a/c fitted. The a/c was fitted in england by the previous owner who is my unlce back in england. In the peak hot hours the a/c stops cooling. I have noticed that vitz usually comes in genuine a/c and its radiator fan has 7 fins while my yaris have 5 fins and its speed is also faster than my yaris a/c. I want to mention that compressor and condensor all are things are 100 percent ok. checked them by 5 different a/c shops. I am going for radiator fan change. All technical people Please help me in this matter.

[mag88]

Last radiator service. >4 year or 80K KM? do it and replace with reliable coolant.

I will suggest to go for an extra small fan (80W new @ 800-1000 RS) , provided there is some space on the condenser face. Make it direct with compressor relay by adding a 2 Pole relay (or even parallel with compressor to save money if you are short handed). Try to avoid paralleling it with the original fan since if there are already 2 fan setup may be a dual speed(3 relay circuit, series parallel conversion). I have heard Mr Xulfiqar saying some where that the fan need to designed for push-in if installed outside the engine bay rather then just reverse the polarity for direction change(10% loss of flow).

[muneebgillani]

Last radiator service. >4 year or 80K KM? do it and replace with reliable coolant.

I will suggest to go for an extra small fan (80W new @ 800-1000 RS) , provided there is some space on the condenser face. Make it direct with compressor relay by adding a 2 Pole relay (or even parallel with compressor to save money if you are short handed). Try to avoid paralleling it with the original fan since if there are already 2 fan setup may be a dual speed(3 relay circuit, series parallel conversion). I have heard Mr Xulfiqar saying some where that the fan need to designed for push-in if installed outside the engine bay rather then just reverse the polarity for direction change(10% loss of flow).

Thanks for replying. Dear my car is driven only 37000 miles. But for my satisfaction i got my radiator serviced and it was perfectly fine. I will try it but what do u think if i only install vitz fan that has bigger motor and more fins? as there is no space where fan can be fitted and i dont like to alter the originality.

[mag88]

Dear,
I can not diagnose anything as i am not auto professional. i just shared my opinion as an experienced driver {car user :)}.
Are you getting no cooling (SAT=Cabin Temp) during noon? or not satisfactory cooling(15C>SAT<20C). Any ac work done during the life of the car and by whom? Pakistani road side or authorized service provider?
You are the user of the car and know its history. Fan flow may (Only if your thermometer is trying to exceed 50%, get ur thermostat valve replaced with NEW genuine first. If it is declared lagging and can not find new remove it till you acquire a new OEM) or may not be the reason get professional opinions from some famous service providers before taking any decision.

[muneebgillani]

@mag88 dear thankyou. no one can detect this problem. and cabin temp is not satisfactory at all.
@XULIFIQAR bhaii please give ur opinion.

[mag88]

Remotely we can only help you to short down the system(component) which may be the reason of trouble and avoid rip off by the workshop.

Pre assumption: The car in hand is good during evening and only display symptom during high ambient. This may be since the car was imported from UK.

Condition 1: Are you getting no cooling (SAT=Cabin Temp) during noon at standstill? And while moving the ac work almost acceptable.
It can be the high pressure switch which disable the compressure. Goto a renown AC service and get service done. It can simply be a bit higher gas charge in the system or some of the components of ac system blocked/failing like TRV etc. A learned ac technician is required to diagnose with measurements. not just tukka.

Condition 2: Are you getting not satisfactory cooling(15C>SAT<20C) during noon?And while moving the ac works just perfect.
Some thing in the cooling system . Keep an eye on your heat needle! should be around 35%(+-5) stable in all conditions idle or moving.
If this is the case proceed.
1 Radiator service. Done. Hope you flashed the system with acidic solution and run the car for around 10 KM before servicing and neutralizing.
2 Thermostat valve. to be checked.
3. Water body. Circulation to be checked.
4. Head gasket. Keep your car idle if in 10 min the needle to beyond 50% then it can be a reason. If its more then 20 min idle to reach such condition one of other component(among step 1,2,3) is also giving up and will eventually (in 5000KM run) will burden head gasket again if not fixed together with gasket replacement.

Concentrate on the conditions and take corresponding steps for resolution.

[talstadjuli]

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[Xulfiqar]

if its a retrofit from UK and if its the same as the ones I have seen then you need to replace the cheesy condenser they put in along with an original spec 2 speed radiator fan from a corolla here in Pakistan.Please record the system pressures and vent temperature along with ambient temperature and post here to get any reasonable advice.

[muneebgillani]

@xulfiqar
sir the condenser is same of pakistani corolla but radiator is a single speed.i want to ask that radiator fan helps in cooling down the car or not? Vehicle is france made and in france problem is to heat up the car not to cool down and thats wh radiator fan motor is small and fins are less. I think i should install radiator fan of pakistani corolla that is 2 speed and more fins. will it work?

i dnt have any tool to measure vent temperature but compressor pressure is 40-45 on idle i got it checked today.

[Xulfiqar]

you posted the low side only, what was the high side pressure? and you can measure vent temperature with a DMM that has a thermocouple, anyway, the fan does affect overall cooling, I have seen the flimsy fans that come in european small toyotas, They are perfectly junk. Get a proper fan - but your car would not have the 2 speed wiring from the ECU or the high speed switch on the A/C liquid line, So best get some generic heavy duty cooling fan and install that in place of the original one.

[muneebgillani]

you posted the low side only, what was the high side pressure? and you can measure vent temperature with a DMM that has a thermocouple, anyway, the fan does affect overall cooling, I have seen the flimsy fans that come in european small toyotas, They are perfectly junk. Get a proper fan - but your car would not have the 2 speed wiring from the ECU or the high speed switch on the A/C liquid line, So best get some generic heavy duty cooling fan and install that in place of the original one.

ok shall i go for pakistani corolla fan? becoz mechanic was telling me that it has bolt on fitting but it has 2 speed and my wiring does not have 2 speed from ecu but i think if i go to some electronic person he will put some desii jugaar. Other than that i will goto market and look for heavy duty generic fan. i also want to ask that when i got my radiator serviced the radiator person took out the thermostat valve. Is it good for car health? and secondly my fan is direct till then, does it have a connection with thermostat valve?

[muneebgillani]

4. Head gasket. Keep your car idle if in 10 min the needle to beyond 50% then it can be a reason. If its more then 20 min idle to reach such condition one of other component(among step 1,2,3) is also giving up and will eventually (in 5000KM run) will burden head gasket again if not fixed together with gasket replacement.

Concentrate on the conditions and take corresponding steps for resolution.

i dont understand that what u want to say in this 4th point? . I think my car lies is suffering condition 2

[muneebgillani]

you posted the low side only, what was the high side pressure? and you can measure vent temperature with a DMM that has a thermocouple, anyway, the fan does affect overall cooling, I have seen the flimsy fans that come in european small toyotas, They are perfectly junk. Get a proper fan - but your car would not have the 2 speed wiring from the ECU or the high speed switch on the A/C liquid line, So best get some generic heavy duty cooling fan and install that in place of the original one.

if i go for a seperate fan for condensor that turns on with compressor will it do the same work.?

[PKTUN]

keya ap nai kisi dosri local (JDM) Vitz ka aircon setup check kara hai by opening the hood keya difference hai? fan speeds ka aircon ka condensor fan compressor k sath on hota hai radiator fan slow chalta hai jab engine garam hota hai to aircon wala fan double speed par aur raditor wala high speed chalta hai aur automatic on off hota hai condensor fan slow aur fast radiator fan k sath operate karta hai. agar aysa nahi hai tou kisi samhajdar aircon walay sai kam karwa leejay. wasay bhi ab to pindi islamabad mai barish shro ho gai hain moujan hi moujan

[Xulfiqar]

you should probably go shoot that radiator ustaad, get your valve back and install it - otherwise your engine will wear out in less than 50,000 kms from now, the engine needs to get hot for the ECU to control fuelling and timing - otherwise it remains stuck in open loop with excess fuel which eventually washes down the cylinders.Dont go for any jugaarbazi in the electrics to run 2 speed fan, The 2 speed setup is not something inside the fan, the slow speed is achieved by using a resistor to drop the current to the fan hence slowing it down - this setup is controlled by 2 relays. Your car does not have this resistor or wiring from the ECU, so if you just slap the corolla fan in place it will work on high speed anytime the fan function is called for whether by the ECU or the A/C. It will surely help in keeping temperatures down.

[mag88]

i dont understand that what u want to say in this 4th point? . I think my car lies is suffering condition 2

I have a fishy feeling your car is overheating. If your Temp needle is EXEEDING 50% mark then you need to get your cooling system rectified first. If i am not missing any point you dont have a Tsat valve and ur fan is direct.Once,needle slightly above 50% mark,if you drive your your car with constant speed of 60 KM (Plus help of suspected low flow fan working ) it should never exceed the 75% mark and probably go back to 40-45%. if this is the situation ur UPGRADED fan may fix the problem. If this 75% target is lost get ur cooling system diagnosed immediately. Check your coolant circulation and make sure there is no air or leak in the system else its headgasket work. Do get it check with atleast 2 mech before taking any decision.

[mag88]

if i go for a seperate fan for condensor that turns on with compressor will it do the same work.?

@Xulfiqar.
Sir would u like to educate us on this point .
I personally feel a NEW separate fan,even small 80W, run with AC button is better then investing on high flow fan (KABLI! who knows what it has gone through and its current specs)and throwing away to junk the old working low flow (felt) fan.

PS: Its human psychic that any new or expensive thing feels better. This need to be proved on measurement after installation and not on feel the flow by hand.
It obviously will feel more with direct battery connection at the shops counter.

Is compressor relay a good point to parallel this AC fan or this relay disengages with high pressure switch of compressor cutoff?

[Xulfiqar]

any fan that shows good amount of flow will work nicely, the problem with new cheap universal condenser fans in Pakistan is that they are very cheaply built and do not perform worth anything when they get hot. But it would be a step ahead to what the poster is stuck with now, and I believe the car already has started to suffer "ustaadification" with the T-stat removal, rigged radiator fan etc. and will soon be in a shop changing the whole engine.

[muneebgillani]

this is an old post. Due to some reasons i did nt come here. @zulifqar bhai i got the thermostate valeve back on the same day you asked me to. For A/C i just installed the japnese vitz fan. It is single speed high flow fan. The Ac now works like a charm even in the 50 degrees temperature.

New problem which i felt. It was that when i turn on a/c the car starts vibrating. The A/C person said as your car is not genuine A/c fitted so it doesnot have wiring from ECU to increase RPM when you turn on A/C thats y it vibrates. Do u have any possible solution to this problem?

[Xulfiqar]

The ECU needs a load signal that the A/C has been called for, it should have an AC1 pin in it which the A/C amplifier connects to. It gets 12V +ve when the A/C is called for.