What Kind of Car is Best For Pakistan

[nickatnite]

shueyb...this is the unsung hero of the Maruti-Suzuki stable, the 'Zen' made in india now for over a decade...a real value for money deal for the customer and a money maker for the company...with disounts being offerd from 350,000 to 400,000.A base model can be had for even less...

The reason for this post is why Pak-Suzuki doesn't get the best from the Suzuki stable??..Ain't it the same company?...

[nickatnite]

shueyb...this post should be about putting together a car for pak roads, so i'm gonna exit gracefully, but before i do i just wanna point out that for the best deals one should go directly to the maufacturers web site in india...Maruti is offering a brand new Wagon-R at the same EMI as any old Maruti trade-in with zero down payment!!..here's the link....

http://wagonr.marutiudyog.com/

Also, they just launched a gussied-up version of the above.Here are specs.:

NEW DELHI: Maruti Udyog Ltd on Thursday launched a new version of its station wagon model 'WagonR', with changes in the car's interiors and exteriors.

The special edition 'WagonR Primea', priced at Rs 3.89 lakh (ex-showroom Delhi), carries many new features over the existing models.

"In the interiors, the Primea comes with a 2-tone colour plan and colour co-ordinated beige upholstery. It carries premium fabric, two-tone leather steering wheel and provides keyless entry," the company said.

The new model comes with alloy wheels, front fog lamps, chrome muffler cap, stylish body graphics and body-coloured door-handles, apart from a new-design speedometer.

This is how competetive the indian car market has become!!

[MotownMadman]

I love the passion here...very healthy arguments, but not war mongering in my opinion. Challenging differing views are the very fuel of progress.

Now, some feedback:

First of all, as I stated earlier, the nature of this project has been evolving with gathering data and analysis and great input from this forum. Many points here sent our Marketing Team into massive investigation mode.

Now, I have used a system very successfully for many years in the Global Auto Market to identify product attributes. This system is called Quality Function Deployment, or QFD.

QFD is a means of gathering the "needs" and "wants" of the market segment in question (there is a difference between those two), then translating those into attributes and then into engineering specifications. This is a high science and if you Google it you can learn a lot about it.

Before this, the market segment must also be defined.

Here is an example:

NEED: Lowest cost of operation with 5 people and storage

WANT: Better pick than Suzuki Mehran

Satisfying needs gets you sales to break even, satisfying wants gets you profit.

The solution here, for Pakistan, is a CNG hybrid. It will have a slightly higher cost than non Hybrid vehicle, but with much better pick and exceptional, unprecedented low cost of operation. The net expense to the customer is realized with an ROI for the hybrid system of about 8-12 months.

So with the need and want above, I set a course with my design team to concieve a low cost simple hybrid system that will take advantage of regenerative braking for maximum fuel efficiency. We are patenting the new idea next week and when it is filed and moving I will share more then.

Now, look what happened here: The need drove innovation. The solution is ultra low cost by virtue of a smaller engine and a small motor being similar in cost to a larger engine, but with better pick and much better fuel economy.

How 'bout that!

Look forward to feedback from my email, spectra and agha300...Oh and please don't go public with the details until we discuss it.

[datzburier]

Reply By : agha300 on 2/2/2006 9:06:06 AM
@datz

Hyundai Coupe=2,300,000
Imported RX7=2,500,000

which car u will prefer to buy?

Agha Bhai, I would go for RX-7 or rather RX-8 now the latest muscle car from Mazda, I have driven the Mazda3 and Mazda6 cars, those are awesome, very good handling, overall and tiptronic transmission. Tiptronic is not seen in Pakistan yet, it is basically automatic transmission, where you can shift gears with just flip of a shift, electronically, without the need for clutch. Although it does not give you the same feeling as Manual transmission, but the ability to shift gears at high engine Rev, gives you the thrills that otherwise an automatic transmission would not be able to do. BMW has the same thing in its 525i which I have also driven, anyway, I also like Hyundai, for the improvements they have made since they first came on seen, but they are no way near Mazda in Sports cars. Mazda's Miata, was very re-freshing, nice handling, ride in the 1990s, but that fad has passed, now their Rotary engine of RX-8 is making all the news. I also have hands on experience with Mazda-3 and Mazda-6, which both are small siblings of RX-8. What RX-8 lacks in styling (not a big fan of its looks, I prefer Mazda-6 over it), it definately makes up in its performance.

@all the dudes,
Appologize Guys, this is Pakistani Car thread, but it does go over some thrilling sports cars experience that can be related to, somehow with our Pakistani Thriller Sports cars too, in future, Insha-Allah, God Willing.

[c123pk]

I say its the best thing to do and even if the cost goes a 1000 dollars more, people will buy it, a recent Example is of the CNG kits... the price rose to Rs.50,000/= from Rs. 22,000/= and people were buying it !
My suggetions to you sir are;
1. This Hybrid should run atleast 20 kms when it runs out of CNG(in Reserve mode).
2. No need of Carburator,Fuel Tank, Fuel Pump etc. All these thing will save money for the Hybrid Battery.
3. A 600cc-800cc, 4 cylinder, 20-24 valves with double Cams which can produce around 60 horsepower.

[MotownMadman]

@c123pk...20-24 valves?!?!?!?!

That would be a 5 valve or 6 valve per cylinder engine!

Are you sure?

And 60 hp in a 500Kg car would be great performance, but would kill fuel economy. We are looking at about 45 hp combined and 90 mpg eqivalent or 60 paisa per km.

[levin]

500kg car when fully loaded with passengers and lugguage will be double weight:)) and hp will be what then?
you have seen what happens to suzuki pickup here?

[MotownMadman]

@levin...I'm so glad you asked yar, as you will understand this long and detailed explanation:

A hybrid has a facinating dynamic nature due to the different characteristics of the Internal Combustion (IC) engine and the electric motor.

An IC engine starts with very low torque and hp at low rpm and builds to its peak at about 6500rpm with 36hp.

The electric motor starts with maximum torque at zero rpm and it comes down as speed increases. Motor ratings are hard to make precise comparisons with IC engines, but suffice it to say that this motor contributes about 10hp at the average operational rpm.

Now since 90% of power is needed for acceleration only and the starting motor torque off the line is equal to about 20hp, this car will feel like it has a 2000cc engine at the low end of the power curve especially.

Here are the planned power curves for the system:

From this you can see how the engine power curve in blue rises, starting low and building up. The motor curve in magenta color starts high and goes down.

These two can be combined using computer controlled electronics depending on demand, resulting in the yellow curve above.

When combined under full throttle there is an effective 28hp available as low as 100RPM! That is the equivalent launch power and torque of a 2000cc engine, but it drops off.

Even with this drop off, the actual sensation will be of a 2000cc engine in my estimates. This is because as the electric motor drops in power, the IC engine comes up to full boil.

Also note that the power available throughout the rev range is phenomenal.

So when we have the M.B.B.S. family graduate from a scooter to this car at an average weight of 70kg per person for a family of 5 with 50Kg of cargo/extra kids, then we have a power to weight ratio of 900kg/43hp. This equals 20.9Kg/hp fully loaded.

Now a Suzuki Mehran has 29hp at 5500rpm with about 640Kg mass. When that same family of 5 and the cargo added the total mass is 1040 Kg. Now this results in 1040Kg/29hp=35.8Kg/hp...

VIRTUALLY DOUBLE THE POWER TO WEIGHT RATIO!!

Don't even get me started about the 8hp at 1000 rpm of the Mehran engine! That is over 400% more power to weight ratio, my good man.

[levin]

yes,, i wont argue with you about this,.without a test drive:))...but i hope this has been tested uphill too at continous speed..(passing a truck or bus uphill before the next road bend) it seems this setup is using hp torque band its max at intial.,,then its goes into economy zone. the weight ratio you used applies to a type of car passengers with little kids. i have seen 4 or 5 adults sitting in mini IC cars.
i have used corolla since past decades and now using higher torgue engine corolla because i was fedup of its low torque and hp to weight ratio especially with a/c on. especially when we use corolla after using BMW/ merc or other 2litre or more cars. plus its safer to ride a car which is little more than all plastic everywhere.

[MotownMadman]

My dear Mr. Levin, a few counterpoints:

Vehicle testing is over a year away, but I will invite you for a test drive when we are ready.

If you look at my analysis I use 70Kg for the average weight of all 5 (YES, FIVE!) passengers...This is not the weight of "little" kids, I think. I believe 70Kg is a realistic average for ADULTS in Pakistan. Also a 50Kg cargo load is included. Now even if it is significantly more than that if you look at the power to weight ratios of a Corolla 1600cc fully loaded with the same 400Kg, it is still better on this design when fully loaded.

Now keep in mind, the Computer Control System of the IC Engine/Motor response sytem allows for varying contributions from each power source depending on many factors...A drive by wire method. The curve I showed is for full throttle performance. During light loads, the electric motor starts the car from a standing start with the IC engine not running.

[MotownMadman]

Oh, and one more thing: I have dedicated much of my career to safety Engineering with several patents in the field. This car has very little plastic and will be as safe or safer than any car in this segment.

The seccret is magnesium!

[Racerf1]

@Motown
Question: How long would the batteries last before they would require replacment and what would the battery replacement cost be? Currently the cost of replacing the rechargeable batteries in a Hybrid Car kind of cancel out the advantage in fuel savings. So wondering what your take would be in this matter?

[levin]

ok:) will be a honor for me to test drive it and compare it.

[MotownMadman]

You are spot on again Levin, my friend. Battery costs do make current hybrids only cost effective for inner city driving and when you buy with your own money 100%. Otherwise the efficiency on highway is lower and the cost of money eats up any savings.

With the production timing around 2009 for this project there should be significant cost reductions for NiMH batteries by then, however, this is a very light vehicle and will thus need a lot less battery energy. Based on current technology and cost our estimates are about 8-10 year life and a $1000 cost. I expect this would be 10-12 years life (useful life of car) and $500 (Rs 30,000) by 2009.

[shueyb]

motown, you said your Global analysis puts it at over 1 million units annual volume, for which Pakistan will be the source.
This is really interesting, as the current volume of cars assembled in Pakistan is around 150,000 per annum. If we can achieve the volume of 1 million for this small car, that can really transform the Pakistani auto industy. As after hitting the 1 million mark, Pakistan's industry can be among the top 5 of Asia.
But you will be coming up with a line of models based on the same platform, I understand. I really pray this can translate into reality, as your brand can be the real ambassador of Pakistan, like Nokia is for Finland, Acer for Taiwan, Skoda for Czech Republic.
This project will require investment in billions. I hope you have made up your arrangements for that as well.

[zeus]

hi all,
the posts on this topic have been so constructive I hardly believe this vil actually happen in PK!
A few points were troubling me motown...
1stly u hv put plenty of info bout this dream here...don't u think dis shud stop...i mean u urself were afraid of patents being stolen...so better be safe than sorry? im sorry if I sound paranoid though!
2ndly vil the innovative features of the car be digestible by the avg pakistani? i suggest the marketing dept. should consider giving free video presentations, test drives, n booklets to their customers so dat everythin is pretty clear...we must remember dat even the avg 'van wala' vil b able to buy it if it is indeed low-priced
3rdly for after-sales service won't u need specialised mechanics? wat if the ignorant customer goes to a local mechanic n has all the electronix messed up?
Lookin forward to positive replies as usual...

[MotownMadman]

@Shueyb...There are many ways to start and grow a successful business...All of which take hard work heart and soul. Pakistan has plenty of this, but few to guide and channel this abundant natural resource.

Please do not think that I think that first year production will be 1 million cars...Far from it. We will start small. The design concept on this project has breakthrough approaches on many fronts, one of the most significant is very low capital and very fast assembly with very low parts count with massive integration.

A highly scaleable approach makes this possible. This way as more cars sell, profits grow which feeds more capital and attracts investment.

If one looks at the root of EVERY successful business and product opportunity, thay are all founded on this:

Create significant content/features at a significantly less cost and do it quickly and better than the competition...Not so easy, huh?

And yes, InshaAllah, I have big plans for expansion in Pakistan. Remember, this is a new class of product, not a traditional car as we know it, but a car that will force you to rethink what is possible. This is because it has immense reductions in "Total Cost of Operation".

This will allow even a taxi driver to lower his charges for passengers, enabling more people to be mobile and thus productive...all while he can make more money with higher profit and more customers...THUS ENABLING HIM TO HELP HIMSELF! This makes for a better society as he may then invest in educating his children and so on with more downstream benefits.

FYI...the initial investment is well into the millions of dollars, and this is feasible to start. If my ideas work well, then it will grow, InshaAllah. If not, then at least I can say in good conscience that I gave everything I had for Pakistan.

I fully expect a 10:1 ratio of export to import when production matures in about 10 years.

Lastly, never forget that talk is cheap. This post was to seek input and advice from the highly respected likes of yourself, the people of Pakistan. I never intended this to be a mouthpiece for me.

I also am well aware of the hundreds if not thousands of non-posting people who read this who may think I am mad, or who are watching with some ill intentions perhaps.

@zeus..thankyou for your concern, my dear friend:

Many have asked me not to be so open, but I don't know how else to be...it's just who I am. I have no fear of others, only Allah and I am on the right path. Even if they CAN steal my ideas AND use them in Pakistan to grow their auto/vendor businesses, good for them...there are plenty more ideas that spring from my well, and I wish them only success.

And besides, zeus, saying I want to build a car like this is very different than showing SPECIFICALLY HOW to do it.

[MotownMadman]

More for zeus:

Most of the features are transparent to "Knowledge of Use" or KOU factors. However, there will absolutely need to be a program with the sales and marketing team to show users how to maximize the benefits of this vehicle.

Remember, I am speaking of lowest TCO, so the goal is no need for ANY servicing for the first 100,000 Km, not even an oil change. Also it will come with a complete 100,000 Km warranty with free repair at the sales dealerships...There is a way to do this, but we will see if it actually happens. It will not be easy.

After that, any serviceability will take a whole new approach as well. That is the entire vehcle is designed like a personal PC computer for plug 'n' play repairs. For example ALL the electronics are in ONE module, so someone simply replaces it and returns the bad module to us and we repair it with fully trained in-house experts. This repaired component is then used for warranty replacement or sold as a spare for those out of warranty.

No repair, even a complete engine/powertrain swap, should take more than 4 hours, and the powertrain is also returnable for credit upto 200,000Km for some discount on a factory certified refurbished replacement.

This approach will allow any person to be a mechanic with very little formal training, just a simple explanation of what to do and how to do it. The most they will do is unbolt things and replace...No "servicing" in the traditional sense.

And just because I said this, doesn't mean others can do it. Frankly, I don't know if I can do this yet, either! LOL! But we will see, InshaAllah...Remember, if this can be done cost effectively, it will lead to increased sales, right? So who will get there first?

[c123pk]

A Warranty of 1,00,000kms is a too much for Pakistani roads Sir, Here even the Toyota people dont offer more then of 50,000kms.
A 50,000kms Warranty will be more then enough.
Make this car which needs less service/tune-ups , It is almost impossible to make a car run a 100,000kms without any servicing... make it a car with every 25,000kms servicing only, with fully synthetic oil change.

[shueyb]

@ motownmadman:
Was there anything I said which made you feel as if I doubted your intentions?
I, for one, hope and pray that nothing could stop you from materializing your dreams.