What Kind of Car is Best For Pakistan

[NadeemIqbal]

hi madman
if u r not using any gears and diffrential and transmission thn u must be using be using a double magnet system on wheel end to reduse all the friction and without diff u rgiving specific power to a specific wheel on need basis.
am i right?
i have written the next part for this but its not completed so i ll post ot later but do tell me am i right?
thanks
nadeem iqbal

[autobanda]

autobanda iz in da house

Assallaam-aliakum Mr motomadman

Sounds good, reeeaaaal good.
Would be even better if I could understand it, if you know what I mean.

[autobanda]

Is this project going Allah tawakkal or is there any dead line and design freeze date?

[MotownMadman]

@nadeemiqbal..Very astute thoughts, but I am going in a different path. Basically, I am using a patent pending spilt CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) which is a 90 year old technology with new life due to better materials for the belts. It uses veriable diameter pulleys to vary the "gear" ratio between engine crankshaft and driveline/wheels. And its rear wheel drive

@Autobanda...Now I know from your posts that you are mashallah, more than smart enough to understand. Just free your mind of tradition and all will come clear. Think of it as a riddle for which I will drop hints over time...For example, what does a shock absorber do? It damps motion. Now think of all of the ways that can be done: Hydraulic, electrical, friction, pneumatic and magnetic. Now, why does it have to be a round cylinder taking up so much space?
Maybe I should change my screen name to "Riddler" lol...You will really enjoy the answers when they come. The best ideas are the simplest.

@autobanda part 2...The timeline can not be solidified until the R&D tasks move from concept through the feasibility stage, but I expect to be in production in 2009, Inshallah, but not inshallah-mashallah, if you know what I mean. Much will depend on my visit to Pakistan next month and the many meetings I have with vendors to determine capability of technology and high volume manufacturing, quality, financial health, market considerations and certainly political climate.

The goal: To build the most advanced small car on the planet, bar none.

And inshallah, it will be.

[agha300]

@Motown

Hats Off Durrani Sb
we are wid u

[athlon3ghz]

hello may god be with you.
first of all I want the moderator of this website to place this specfic chain on the main page because of its great importance . it took me 2 mins to get to this post again. you know what I mean.
reading all the replies I just wanted to share with you guys that alot of ppl are aprehensive that if we go ahead with CNG then the car will be inter-city vehicle only. mind you we are not considering the expansion and ever growing expansion of CNG outlets in mind if you are to produce this car by 2009 then mark my words that all major highways and cities will definately have CNG stations.
secondly if you have a good aerodynamic engineer or CAD professional you might as well experiment with wind-power instead of developing frontal design to cut thru the air it might as well take some percentage of the air inside the bonet connect it to some sort of dynamo.just an idea.
I am not an engineer by profession but I just want highlight some ideas which may help you indirectly.
plus I think developing dedicated CNG car would be way better than petrol/cng so that you may harness higher octane properties of CNG. another idea is the one implemented with santro GV instead of one big Cylinder you can have 3-4 whatever the practical solution is small ones .
ran out of ideas for the moment. I am a software engineer willing to help you in any way possible.bye

[datzburier]

This is by far the best Discussion on Pakwheels. Not buttering here, this is the Real Deal.
Just have few things in mind.

We Pakistanis are among the largest user of CNG in the world, by some account 3rd largest CNG vehicle users after Brazil and Argentina I think. But my concern is that if this car is going to be Totally CNG dedicated, how would European adopt to this, since they are not big on CNG yet, and we do not know what type of fuel they would choose. Would they stay with Petrol, or move onto using other alternative fuels.

Other thing in my mind was, just reading about Sri Lankan car recently, the Micro - Trend. Posted the pictures of it somewhere in Pakwheels. That looks alot like TATA's Indica and was designed by an Italian. I know we Pakistanis are fully capable, by I am thinking, why not we Pakistanis also consult with Italians for the car design. The Indians, did it for their first National car Indica in 1998, the Sri Lankans also went to Italy for their first National Car design, Daewoo of Korea has many cars designed by Italians, not only them, the Japanese have had some designs sketched in Italy. Why not seek some advise from the best, and Italians who penned the sharp lines of Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Ducatis, etc. happen to be the world renowed design Masters of our age. Why not seek some hints, assistance from Italians in the final exterior and More importantly the INTERIOR design of the car. Engineering wise, Motown Bhai has the car down to the perfect science. Insha-Allah design will also be one to conquer the whole world, by its killer Top Class Design. After all, that is the first thing a consumer looks at, how the car looks, the functionality also comes in, but at a later stage, when you have bought the car.

[datzburier]

Just amending here to the above. The fully CNG dedicated car will be perfect for Pakistani market. I was just thinking about exporting to Europeans whom are not big on CNG usage yet. Hopefully there would some consideration for this, I mean a separate petrol engine for European/Middle Eastern/African/Asian Export market, as well as option for fully CNG dedicated car for local Pakistani and other South American Markets like Brazil and Argentina who are also CNG crazy like us.

[agha300]

@datzburier

although CNG is a cheap fuel but here in pakistan we dont have proper ratio of hp available. if we gonna use CNG in Mehran VXR we cant have that much output. in summer season one cant have the privilidge of Air Conditioning system. comparing to that Diesel Vehicles do a gr8 job. so is it necessary to have a CNG vehicle model. can we have a diesel engine model tooo!
probably china can help us better in acquiring and developing such car?

[datzburier]

agha300, good input. The diesel is also being promoted by Top Car Makers like Mercedez, and now it burns as clean as petrol. If a clean burning diesel engine can be introduced that would be great. Cost is another issue. Don't know exactly which engine is cheaper, the current petrol or diesel, and why has diesel engine not picked up in popularity in Pakistan. I mean this engine has been around since the petrol, I think its due to the size. Only 2C and 2D has been seen mostly, which is also used in many pick ups and I think trucks and buses. How about a small scale diesel engine that competes with 800CC Petrol engine.

But CNG is the best option of them all, currently its the Cleanest and most affordable fuel of them all. A completely CNG dedicated car, as put MotownBhai is working on, is Best for Pakistan market, as well as exporting to other countries that are also using CNG fuel in South America and elsewhere.

[datzburier]

Correction to the above.

A completely CNG dedicated car, as putforth by MotownBhai, will be a good option.

[agha300]

@datz
thanx for listening the idea
Diesel cars have more hp than any gasoline engine. reliable too. give a greater compression ratio too. it means more powerfull.
Cummins i think is a company who is making 660cc power diesel engines. again it will be a more better choice against a 800cc gasoline engine. CNG....hmmmm. is it that we are moving towards LPG in future?

so i would again request to reconsider. 660cc TD car. Direct Fuel Injection. No EFI, ECU and other complicated circuits will be required.

if u require i can arrange some good quotations for the supply of engine from china automotive market.....

[Beamers]

dear cyclestyne, I want to know what happened to habib sutar, can you pls elaborate?

[MotownMadman]

Hello everyone, sorry I haven't been posting for a while...There was a lot of follow on meetings with many people from the Detroit Auto show. I wasn't getting home until midnight most days.

Some feedback:

@datzburier first, from 7 posts back: Getting help from the Italians is an excellent Idea. I will post a pic of a friend of mine you might recognize. He designed the Alfa Romeo Brera and I have been schooled by his design philosophy over the last 20 years. There is a big difference between art and engineering to most. But for me, they are mutual enablers. Technology often allows freer forms to exist. For example, tall skyscrapers could not exist until high strength steel beams were invented, along with structural glass, and re-bar in high compression load concrete. I have also visited with Andreas Pininnfarina in turin in the 1990's for extensive design consultations on a few projects. It may interest you to know that although I love High Engineering Prowess, my first love is design, as I spent the first 3 years of college in Architecture, and then changed to Mechanical Engineering. People talk about how form should follow function or function should follow form. I believe that they are 2 components of teh same vector, one magnitude and the other directio...They are inextricably linked. Look to the Detroit Auto Show post I will do this weekend for more about this regarding the Autoweek Design Forum. There was a lot of information to digest and organize. I didn't just want to post pics.

[MotownMadman]

@athlon3ghz from 9 posts back: I appreciate the feedback. There are methods to determin the optimum CNG tank volume for a given application. Realize that this concept we are developing uses teh tank as the center floor tunnel of the vehicle for structure. This way the structure for tank strength is also used for vehicle stiffness. Also the tank is now in the safest place possible, consumes no trunk space, allowing max luggage capacity, and is located in an area of the vehicle which greatly improves vehicle dynamics with a low center of gravity (CG) thereby allowing more high speed stability. There will be one tank for the car, and two "frame rail" style tanks for teh trucks.

Now, about wind power, it is difficult to take advantage of this, but it is an intrigueing idea...let me chew opn it for a while. Oh, and there is no bonnet!

[spectra]

agha jee
Cummins is a speacilist in heavy duty diesel engines, show a web page where u saw the 660cc Diesel

Compression ignition engines of this capacity are hard for me to digest

[MotownMadman]

@datzburier, 10 posts back: Excellent posts, and I am so happy that you are enjoying this. I am so grateful to all of you for your heartfelt and sincere input, it means the world to me and will make a world of difference to the Pakistani Auto Industry. I am not going to settle for a "thook polish" approach, or an "average car". It needs to be the very best.

Now, about Europe and CNG. There are 1142 CNG refilling stations in Europe right now and they are increasing at the rate of 5-8 per month...Not bad, huh. Also, there is a great Microcar market there with 300,000 vehicle sales in 2005 and growing at a faster rate then any other market segment. I want a piece of that action for Pakistan.

@agha300, 5 posts back. I respectfully submit that diesels have less horspower than petrol engines for the same displacement. They are MUCH heavier (30%) than petrol engines and cost about 25% more to make.

Now they are more efficient than petrol by about 35%, but CNG is 60% more efficient than petrol, and 30% more efficient than diesel. The reason the Mehran VXR is low on power is EXACTLY why a dedicated CNG only engine must be designed and manufactured for this market...something no one has yet done in the world. When the engine is carefully designed for a specific CNG application it can be optimized in many areas for this specific fuel type, so excellent power can be achieved.

By the way, can someone describe how a CNG diesel conversion kit works?

Now, a diesel engine is best for heavy load applications. A car of Mehran size would be too heavy, even with a 800cc diesel. This is because to be strong enough for the high compression, the engine block would need to be made of cast iron. Aluminum is 1/3 the weight of iron. My engine concept is 1/3 less weight than aluminum by using magnesium.

In summary, for a 800 cc engine, a diesel might weigh 150 Kgs, aluminum petrol: 110 Kgs, and a magnesium CNG: 80 Kgs. Also the crankshaft in a diesel has to be much bigger and heavier to take the loads.

And BTW, neither the Chinese nor anybody else knows enough to make this possible, so thank you for your offer for Chinese diesel engines, but respectfully not needed.

[MotownMadman]

@spectra, you are right on the money.

Oh, and when I was a kid growing up in Mryland, USA, I had a small airplane powered by a 0.8cc compression igintion engine by a company called COX. Really, Google it.

[datzburier]

Great input Motownbhai, as always

The diesel engine is heavy and works best for heavy duty trucks. Othewise we would have seen small diesel engine mehran puttering away in Pakistan and other developing nations.

I have another inquiry, just came in my head.. LoL... At a later stage, how about introducing a CNG-Electric hybrid. It will add some addition weight and cost, but this would be better for High End car, as consumer will still want to know about this innovative Hybrid concept being explored seriously in US and Japan for gasoline-electric cars. At the autoshow, there were few Hybrids this year, I really liked the Honda Civic Hybrid. The posted EPA mileage was 60mpg on average, thats almost twice as good as the current 33 to 35mpg. I know the EPA mileage can be misleading, as it only posts results in ideal conditions, i.e. ambient temperature, the speed, etc.

So, CNG is really great, and motown bhai, you have also mentioned about CVT type of transmission. Actually NISSAN will be introducing, 1 million vehicles in US this year with CVT, and they claim it is better on gas mileage compared to conventional automatic transmission.

But we know, manual transmission is also better than auto trans, interms of gas mileage and therefore it popularity all over the world. In Europe I heard, 90% cars are manual transmission mainly due to its better fuel efficiency than auto trans.

Which is more efficient, Manual transmission, with Human driver judging the proper power ratio or computer controlled continuously variable transmissin in automatic cars.

My last query is, since you mentioned CVT, which is only available in Automatic cars, so Motownbhai, is the car in minicar segment going to be Automatic transmission, if yes, then that is really great.

[datzburier]

Correction to my thoughts above, hybrid is not a concept being explorer at detroit autoshow, but what I meant was, many automakers are exploiting this area of innovative technology.