Maintaining UPS/car batteries

[talhawaleed]

@talhawaheed
Brthr i have pair of ags 27 plates per cell batteries, ups is 2000 va
What should be charging rate for max battery life? My batteries are always destroyed in 1 year.

27 plates does not tells me about anything, what’s the battery model number or AMP-HR ratings.
Formula says that maximum allowable charging rate cannot exceed AMP-HR ratings/10. Normally if model no is N200 then APR-HR rating might be 170, that can be checked from manufacturers website.

[mac148]

TALHA, I WAS THINKING THT DO U KNOW SOME DIGITAL CIRCUIT FOR DESI TYPES OF UPS WHICH CAN BE INSTALLED IN DESI UPS AVAILABLE IN THE MARKET AND THROUGH WHICH WE CAN CONTROL ALL THE REQUIRED CURRENTS etc FOR THE BATTERY/UPS FUNCTIONS. I MEAN IT WOULD BE EASY FOR A COMMON MAN TO OPERATE AND ADJUST THE UPS THROUGH DIGITAL CIRCUIT/DISPLAY,,,,FOR REFERENCE IM PASTING THE LINK OF ANOTHER FORUM ie., Desi UPS, 500 watts circuit. - Engineering Corner - WiredPakistan :: A Pakistani Tech forum
UR COMMENTS AND ADVICE ON THE ISSUE WILL ENLIGHTEN US ALL,,,
REGARDS....

Well I think I have manually made a solution for your requirements using three digital panel meters i.e. DC Volt Meter, AC Volt Meter and DC Ampere Meter. I have calibrated all three using a sensitive mulitmeter upto one decimal place. These meters give me real time information about the health of my ups systems and batteries. This thread have helped me alot in final calibration of my UPS systems.

This DIY solution cost me only Rs. 1500 and i get the following information in real time.

1. DC Voltmeter tells me the cutting of charging by UPS when battery is fully charged at 14.0 volts and turning off of UPS when battery is fully discharged at 10 volts. It also gives me a rough idea of charge remaining in battery during loadshedding as well as time needed for full charging of the battery. It also helps in fine tweaking the "battery full" and "battery low" variables on ups kit with time.

2. AC Voltmeter tells me the output voltage in real time so that "Fix Volt" variable is fine tweaked in a way that the output voltage never exceeds 250 volts. The reading of this meter also give a rough idea of charge left in Batteries during loadshedding. This helps me to calibrate ups in a way that it shuts off when Output voltage drops to 220 volts.

3. DC Ampere meter tells me the current in real time at which the battery is being charged. My UPS systems charge the batteries in step manner. First high current is given and when the voltage touches 14 v it goes to next lower current step charging again reaching 14 volts and then so on. The reading of this meter along with dc volt meter gives me the exact idea of time remaining to fully charge the battery. The reading on this meter during loadshedding also tells me load on the ups as the ups draws more current when higher loads are put on it.

I recommend these three meters to everyone who wants to diagnose the problems with their UPS systems. Also these meters helps a lot in maintenance of the batteries in a way that any problem is notified immediately in real time before any damage happens to batteries. Periodic checking of Specific gravity using hydrometer makes sure that batteries are in perfect health.

Sharing couple of pictures of my UPS systems and meters.

[Ishtiaq778]

Well I think I have manually made a solution for your requirements using three digital panel meters i.e. DC Volt Meter, AC Volt Meter and DC Ampere Meter. I have calibrated all three using a sensitive mulitmeter upto one decimal place. These meters give me real time information about the health of my ups systems and batteries. This thread have helped me alot in final calibration of my UPS systems.

This DIY solution cost me only Rs. 1500 and i get the following information in real time.

1. DC Voltmeter tells me the cutting of charging by UPS when battery is fully charged at 14.0 volts and turning off of UPS when battery is fully discharged at 10 volts. It also gives me a rough idea of charge remaining in battery during loadshedding as well as time needed for full charging of the battery. It also helps in fine tweaking the "battery full" and "battery low" variables on ups kit with time.

2. AC Voltmeter tells me the output voltage in real time so that "Fix Volt" variable is fine tweaked in a way that the output voltage never exceeds 250 volts. The reading of this meter also give a rough idea of charge left in Batteries during loadshedding. This helps me to calibrate ups in a way that it shuts off when Output voltage drops to 220 volts.

3. DC Ampere meter tells me the current in real time at which the battery is being charged. My UPS systems charge the batteries in step manner. First high current is given and when the voltage touches 14 v it goes to next lower current step charging again reaching 14 volts and then so on. The reading of this meter along with dc volt meter gives me the exact idea of time remaining to fully charge the battery. The reading on this meter during loadshedding also tells me load on the ups as the ups draws more current when higher loads are put on it.

I recommend these three meters to everyone who wants to diagnose the problems with their UPS systems. Also these meters helps a lot in maintenance of the batteries in a way that any problem is notified immediately in real time before any damage happens to batteries. Periodic checking of Specific gravity using hydrometer makes sure that batteries are in perfect health.

Sharing couple of pictures of my UPS systems and meters.

Salam
Excellent effort dear, i m really impressed , thumbs up
dear i need your favour to buy these meter for me.
I need DIGITAL FREQUENCY METER, VOLT METER, AC METER AND DC AMPERE METER.......ALL THESE OF PUMA COMPANY
I am from Dina District jhelum.......have no time to go to lahore to get these items.
Can u do it for me??? pm me ur cell number

[Ishtiaq778]

Dear mac148

			You have done one thing totally wrong.........u have placed UPS on wooden table like thing and placed the batteries directly on floor.

Plz reverse it........Place the batteries on wooden wreck and UPS on floor , or place some wood piece or packing material under the batteries.

[HellsGuardian]

Dear mac148

You have done one thing totally wrong.........u have placed UPS on wooden table like thing and placed the batteries directly on floor.
Plz reverse it........Place the batteries on wooden wreck and UPS on floor , or place some wood piece or packing material under the batteries.

why ups should be on floor?

[Ishtiaq778]

why ups should be on floor?

its better than battery to put on ground

Both batteries and UPS should be placed on wooden or insulated material..........

[mac148]

Dear mac148

You have done one thing totally wrong.........u have placed UPS on wooden table like thing and placed the batteries directly on floor.
Plz reverse it........Place the batteries on wooden wreck and UPS on floor , or place some wood piece or packing material under the batteries.

well its a bit odd for me what you pointed out. I just placed the UPS systems on wooden rack for protection from dirt and other spilling materials that may be present on floor. Also wood being insulated material reduces the chances of shock in the presence of liquid on floor.

In my opinion batteries are made up of tough insulating plastic. Might not need such level of protection as the metal encased UPS needs.

[ecu_designer]

By rule of thumb the maximum allowable charging rate of Lead Acid batteries are its Amp Hour rating divided by 10. For 145 AH battery; the correct charging rate is 145 AH/10 is 14.5 Volts. Anything above this would be termed as fast charging which would damage your batteries in long run. Slow charging is good for batteries but if intensity of load shedding is frequent then probably batteries won?t be prepared before it enters next cycle of load shedding. So you need to look into your circumstances before adjusting this figure but in circumstances you should go above maximum allowable charging rate.

can u plzzz elaborate this??? 14.5 Volts thingy

what if i use 12v 7AH battery, then according to ur formula i get "the correct charging rate is 7 AH/10 is 0.7 Volts"

I dont understand y we ppl prefer desi UPS made by our respected uneducated Mystries who knows nothing about any thing & using same 1980s Transformer based obsolete technology with poor efficiency no Protections etc.

whereas state of the Art Imported UPS/Inverterz designed by highly qualified foreign Engrz r available in local market with 3/2 stage intelligent charger & lots of kool safety features.

I simply hate desi UPS, Local UPS r even more worse than our Suzuki Mehran

When i was kid i designed my own Pure Sine Wave Inverter using Switch Mode Technology with voltage feedback control loop
Pure Sine Wave Inverter Under Heavy Load Testing - Video Dailymotion

Modified sine wave inverter
Modified Sine Wave Inverter (SMPS) with PIC16F628A - Video Dailymotion

[mac148]

can u plzzz elaborate this??? 14.5 Volts thingy

what if i use 12v 7AH battery, then according to ur formula i get "the correct charging rate is 7 AH/10 is 0.7 Volts"

I dont understand y we ppl prefer desi UPS made by our respected uneducated Mystries who knows nothing about any thing & using same 1980s Transformer based obsolete technology with poor efficiency no Protections etc.

whereas state of the Art Imported UPS/Inverterz designed by highly qualified foreign Engrz r available in local market with 3/2 stage intelligent charger & lots of kool safety features.

I simply hate desi UPS, Local UPS r even more worse than our Suzuki Mehran

When i was kid i designed my own Pure Sine Wave Inverter using Switch Mode Technology with voltage feedback control loop
Pure Sine Wave Inverter Under Heavy Load Testing - Video Dailymotion

Modified sine wave inverter
Modified Sine Wave Inverter (SMPS) with PIC16F628A - Video Dailymotion

I think Talha typed "14.5 volts" by mistake. What he wanted to tell was that charging current should not be more than 14.5 Amperes.

Rest I am a fan of desi UPS. Reason being you can manage the faults ( if any) with great flexibility, repairing costs are low and parts are available easily. imported might be advanced technology but with no flexibility of changing the things according to our locally made lead acid batteries. If it gets burnt or develops any fault then repairing costs are high and can only be managed through authorized dealers.

[ecu_designer]

I think Talha typed "14.5 volts" by mistake. What he wanted to tell was that charging current should not be more than 14.5 Amperes.

Rest I am a fan of desi UPS. Reason being you can manage the faults ( if any) with great flexibility, repairing costs are low and parts are available easily. imported might be advanced technology but with no flexibility of changing the things according to our locally made lead acid batteries. If it gets burnt or develops any fault then repairing costs are high and can only be managed through authorized dealers.

UPS r not like toys that u need to adjust the parameters every time. Factory calibrations r very accurate and good enough.

Kindly chck ur Desi UPS o/p voltage in case of NO load condition,

Ohh lets talk about "xyz Taiwan made ups" which comes with 1 year warranty, trust me man nothing happens to these UPS if u install them properly. i m using one in my house since 2008

[mac148]

UPS r not like toys that u need to adjust the parameters every time. Factory calibrations r very accurate and good enough.

Kindly chck ur Desi UPS o/p voltage in case of NO load condition,

Ohh lets talk about "xyz Taiwan made ups" which comes with 1 year warranty, trust me man nothing happens to these UPS if u install them properly. i m using one in my house since 2008

Well people go with their own experiences. I have very good experience with locally made ups systems thats why i like these. By the way ups kits coming in market these days do have the flexibility of adjusting output voltage. Mine is 250 volts.
My comment for local ups systems is same as yours "nothing happens to these UPS if u install them properly" plus nothing happens to your batteries for couple of years if you timely adjust your ups according to mandatory battery degradation.

[Khan_Saab]

UPS ke liye kon si Battery thek ha

[ecu_designer]

Well people go with their own experiences. I have very good experience with locally made ups systems thats why i like these. By the way ups kits coming in market these days do have the flexibility of adjusting output voltage. Mine is 250 volts.
My comment for local ups systems is same as yours "nothing happens to these UPS if u install them properly" plus nothing happens to your batteries for couple of years if you timely adjust your ups according to mandatory battery degradation.

great nw what would happen if there is no load on ur beloved Desi UPS & u feed this 250V to ur sensitive electronic gadgets?? i hope u know that the load on UPS never remains exactly the same.

Some advance features of Desi UPS
-Made by illiterate Mistries with no technical background or certification, no theory nothing. If u dont believe in me then go & ask them about Ohm’s Laws.
-Desi UPS have no output voltage regulation Loop. (eg in case of no Load output goes to 300v & it drops to 150v when full load is applied)
-No Protections at all.
-Poor (DC to AC) conversion Efficiency
-no PF correction
-loads of internal losses
-Bulky Heavy Weight like Tanks
-There is no charging voltage regulation if in case there is a variation (High/Low) in utility voltage plzzzzz do appreciate the fluctuation in charging voltage/current thats y desi UPS requires charging cutoff adjustment every time
- There is no charging current controlled PWM Controller (conventional Bulky Resistor)
-no 2/3 stage intelligent charger
-Plz do open its casing & see how the Power Transistors & Diodes legs are brutally twisted with no insulations. Casing screws holes r never aligned
-lots of naked wires hanging around in conducting iron casing.
-Highly inefficient Power Transistors driver circuitry.
-Bulky Conventional Transformer with lots of losses like Eddy Current Losses, Magnetic Flux Losses, Resistive losses.
-The world has moved to Switched Mode Power Supplies, Inverterz & Chargerz because of their high efficiency, minimal internal losses, compactness, stability.
-My dear kindly measure how much power ur Desi UPS draws from Battery in inverter mode when there is no AC load on its output, I can bet it would b more than 5 or 6A so (12v x 5A = 60w loss)
-Trust me man Imported UPS (follow some standards) r much easy to repair as compared to Desi UPS which consumes loads of time bcz every Ustad g has used his own JOGAR. Soldering or Desoldering any part is like hell
-etc

[mac148]

great nw what would happen if there is no load on ur beloved Desi UPS & u feed this 250V to ur sensitive electronic gadgets?? i hope u know that the load on UPS never remains exactly the same.

Some advance features of Desi UPS
-Made by illiterate Mistries with no technical background or certification, no theory nothing. If u dont believe in me then go & ask them about Ohm’s Laws.
-Desi UPS have no output voltage regulation Loop. (eg in case of no Load output goes to 300v & it drops to 150v when full load is applied)
-No Protections at all.
-Poor (DC to AC) conversion Efficiency
-no PF correction
-loads of internal losses
-Bulky Heavy Weight like Tanks
-There is no charging voltage regulation if in case there is a variation (High/Low) in utility voltage plzzzzz do appreciate the fluctuation in charging voltage/current thats y desi UPS requires charging cutoff adjustment every time
- There is no charging current controlled PWM Controller (conventional Bulky Resistor)
-no 2/3 stage intelligent charger
-Plz do open its casing & see how the Power Transistors & Diodes legs are brutally twisted with no insulations. Casing screws holes r never aligned
-lots of naked wires hanging around in conducting iron casing.
-Highly inefficient Power Transistors driver circuitry.
-Bulky Conventional Transformer with lots of losses like Eddy Current Losses, Magnetic Flux Losses, Resistive losses.
-The world has moved to Switched Mode Power Supplies, Inverterz & Chargerz because of their high efficiency, minimal internal losses, compactness, stability.
-My dear kindly measure how much power ur Desi UPS draws from Battery in inverter mode when there is no AC load on its output, I can bet it would b more than 5 or 6A so (12v x 5A = 60w loss)
-Trust me man Imported UPS (follow some standards) r much easy to repair as compared to Desi UPS which consumes loads of time bcz every Ustad g has used his own JOGAR. Soldering or Desoldering any part is like hell
-etc

Sir I agree with your points regarding power factor and losses. However few points regarding Intelligent step charging and out put voltage regulation are now present in latest UPS kits. Also not all local made ups systems are made by "MISTRIES". I know electrical engineers who have designed UPS circuits and they do proper bench testing before selling. Designs of imported UPS systems might be better but as far as i am concerned, may be I am more easy with understanding of concepts and circuits used in locally made ups systems.
I am not claiming that local UPS systems are better. I am sharing my personal point of view. Not every body has to accept it

[Ishtiaq778]

great nw what would happen if there is no load on ur beloved Desi UPS & u feed this 250V to ur sensitive electronic gadgets?? i hope u know that the load on UPS never remains exactly the same.

Some advance features of Desi UPS
-Made by illiterate Mistries with no technical background or certification, no theory nothing. (You are right , but this story is too old now, Quality ups manufacturer are more inn now in the market..If u dont believe in me then go & ask them about Ohm’s Laws. ( In the beginning of ups era in Pakistan many
-Desi UPS have no output voltage regulation Loop. (eg in case of no Load output goes to 300v & it drops to 150v when full load is applied)( There are more advance circuits available in the market, which regulate the out put from 220v to 250 volts, no volts drop issue or over volts its
-No Protections at all.( Over load protection, low battery protection, over volts protection are available now)
-Poor (DC to AC) conversion Efficiency ( In latest circuits, this issue is resolved, no computer restarts, no flutucation.
-no PF correction( True)
-loads of internal losses ( Good Local UPS have 5 to 10% extra loss than China invertors)
-Bulky Heavy Weight like Tanks ( True but , Not more than the battery weight, its one time job to place it
-There is no charging voltage regulation if in case there is a variation (High/Low) in utility voltage plzzzzz do appreciate the fluctuation in charging voltage/current thats y desi UPS requires charging cutoff adjustment every time.( In last two year new circuits is introduced in the market with regulated charging, u can fix charging ampere from 3 to 20 amp as per battery requirement, from 150 to 250 volts.
- There is no charging current controlled PWM Controller (conventional Bulky Resistor)
-no 2/3 stage intelligent charger( Now it exist in some circuits)
-Plz do open its casing & see how the Power Transistors & Diodes legs are brutally twisted with no insulations. Casing screws holes r never aligned. ( True but for third class local desi ups not for intelligently built .
-lots of naked wires hanging around in conducting iron casing.( U are talking about very old ups or assembled by new learner or shagird of technician)
-Highly inefficient Power Transistors driver circuitry. ( In FET bas conversion this issue is resolved)
-Bulky Conventional Transformer with lots of losses like Eddy Current Losses, Magnetic Flux Losses, Resistive losses.( Right, If sub standard copper wire is used and third class core is used for it but quality Local ups manufactures use fine quality materials to avoid these loses.
-The world has moved to Switched Mode Power Supplies, Inverterz & Chargerz because of their high efficiency, minimal internal losses, compactness, stability.( hmmmmmmmmm)
-My dear kindly measure how much power ur Desi UPS draws from Battery in inverter mode when there is no AC load on its output, I can bet it would b more than 5 or 6A so (12v x 5A = 60w loss)
Wrong(…….1.5 to 2.5 amp is off load loss, if cooling fan is switched off , it takes only 1amp)
-Trust me man Imported UPS (follow some standards) r much easy to repair as compared to Desi UPS which consumes loads of time bcz every Ustad g has used his own JOGAR. Soldering or Desoldering any part is like hell
-etc

[ecu_designer]

@ Alfalah UPS

I appreciate if u show me any DESI UPS with sch features ???

PLz shed some light on my own designed Toys

pure sine wave switched mode Technology Inverter 660W
Pure Sine Wave Inverter Under Heavy Load Testing - Video Dailymotion

VDF true 3phase sine wave
3-Phase Variable Frequency Drive via PIC16F876A - Video Dailymotion

[talhawaleed]

Kindly make this correction that charging rate is AMP-HR rating/10 = ---AMPS. I have repeated this formula so many times, but seems like I made a mistake in mentioned quote.

"the correct charging rate is 145 AH/10 is 14.5 AMPs "

that simply says that you should never exceed the charging rate beyond 14.5 amperes, its safe and perfectly ok to keep it on 5 amperes, 7 amperes, 9 amperes, 10 amperes and maximum 14.5 deending upon the frequency of load shedding in your area.

can u plzzz elaborate this??? 14.5 Volts thingy

what if i use 12v 7AH battery, then according to ur formula i get "the correct charging rate is 7 AH/10 is 0.7 Volts"

I dont understand y we ppl prefer desi UPS made by our respected uneducated Mystries who knows nothing about any thing & using same 1980s Transformer based obsolete technology with poor efficiency no Protections etc.

whereas state of the Art Imported UPS/Inverterz designed by highly qualified foreign Engrz r available in local market with 3/2 stage intelligent charger & lots of kool safety features.

I simply hate desi UPS, Local UPS r even more worse than our Suzuki Mehran

When i was kid i designed my own Pure Sine Wave Inverter using Switch Mode Technology with voltage feedback control loop
Pure Sine Wave Inverter Under Heavy Load Testing - Video Dailymotion

Modified sine wave inverter
Modified Sine Wave Inverter (SMPS) with PIC16F628A - Video Dailymotion

[talhawaleed]

UPS r not like toys that u need to adjust the parameters every time. Factory calibrations r very accurate and good enough.

Kindly chck ur Desi UPS o/p voltage in case of NO load condition,

Ohh lets talk about "xyz Taiwan made ups" which comes with 1 year warranty, trust me man nothing happens to these UPS if u install them properly. i m using one in my house since 2008

You need to have a look at the UPS card which comes along with Desi UPS. It has many variables such as output voltage, battery cutoff high, battery cutoff low, charging rates etc. All these variables can be easily tuned provided if you understand little bit of electronics.

One can go for a branded UPS but I would suggest that he follows the user manual and attach the correct battery as specific by the manufacturer. (in-terms of AMP-HR ratings)

Imported UPS does not provides a way to change the charging rate. Like conditions here in Pakistan changes very frequently, like you have a frequent load shedding in summers and mild in winters. You can adjust the charging rate to its maximum AMP-HR ratings in summers and then in winters you can re-adjust to a lower value.

Point remains that batteries should not remain undercharged once they enter next cycle of load shedding (summers) and that charging rate be not very high once you have a mild load shedding(winters)( slow charging is good for batteries).

[talhawaleed]

Well I think I have manually made a solution for your requirements using three digital panel meters i.e. DC Volt Meter, AC Volt Meter and DC Ampere Meter. I have calibrated all three using a sensitive mulitmeter upto one decimal place. These meters give me real time information about the health of my ups systems and batteries. This thread have helped me alot in final calibration of my UPS systems.

This DIY solution cost me only Rs. 1500 and i get the following information in real time.

1. DC Voltmeter tells me the cutting of charging by UPS when battery is fully charged at 14.0 volts and turning off of UPS when battery is fully discharged at 10 volts. It also gives me a rough idea of charge remaining in battery during loadshedding as well as time needed for full charging of the battery. It also helps in fine tweaking the "battery full" and "battery low" variables on ups kit with time.

2. AC Voltmeter tells me the output voltage in real time so that "Fix Volt" variable is fine tweaked in a way that the output voltage never exceeds 250 volts. The reading of this meter also give a rough idea of charge left in Batteries during loadshedding. This helps me to calibrate ups in a way that it shuts off when Output voltage drops to 220 volts.

3. DC Ampere meter tells me the current in real time at which the battery is being charged. My UPS systems charge the batteries in step manner. First high current is given and when the voltage touches 14 v it goes to next lower current step charging again reaching 14 volts and then so on. The reading of this meter along with dc volt meter gives me the exact idea of time remaining to fully charge the battery. The reading on this meter during loadshedding also tells me load on the ups as the ups draws more current when higher loads are put on it.

I recommend these three meters to everyone who wants to diagnose the problems with their UPS systems. Also these meters helps a lot in maintenance of the batteries in a way that any problem is notified immediately in real time before any damage happens to batteries. Periodic checking of Specific gravity using hydrometer makes sure that batteries are in perfect health.

Sharing couple of pictures of my UPS systems and meters.

Great, this is what I recommended a long time back and good to see that you implemented it. You can install the AC Voltmeter in main Hall or living room on a UPS line. That way you wont have to frequently visit the room where you have installed the UPS.

[mac148]

Yeah talha your knowledge has been of great help in implementing this setup.
The place where I have setup my ups system is just the corner of my entrance. Always in my easy access and sight.
Hoping for better summer this year.