Which high end components?

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stj174 (stj174) 2010-09-15 14:22:18 +0500 #21

Let just mellow down the discussion please. The topic is about which comps to get, regardless of the head unit. This is certain that he is not willing to change the HU and AMP. so lets just keep the:
1. HU
2. Amp
3. installer/ install
to be constant.

So now keeping that in mind, lets just help the guy get the best possible comps in the budget.

If i remember correctly, the best ever factory installed SQ setup that i have ever heard to date was in an Cadillac Escalade, which was a BOSE 5.1 setup and i dont think there was any Alpine 9887 installed in that car.

stj174 (stj174) 2010-09-15 14:33:22 +0500 #22

LOLZ Sir we are not here to compete at an international level SQ competition so for that we need very high end head units and without those head units we will be thrown out of the competition.

We need to satisfy our own ears and for that we need a balanced system which we can enjoy ourselves.

We are not here to satisfy a whole bench of judges and neither we are competing with our rival manufacturers. I also think there is nobody in Pakistan that can make such an install that can compete in an international event.

More over lets just go 10 years back, where there was no Alpine 9887 or P99RS. The question I ask is whether people didnt used to have SQ installs at that time?

I agree, with a better HU we can have a better sounding system. But do we really need it?? since we are not going to use even 1/3 of the processing and tweaks available in those head units.

Yes the Head Unit does make a difference, but that doesn't mean we cant install a SQ setup without those particular Head units.

madhouse12 (madhouse12) 2010-09-15 17:59:47 +0500 #23

i think we all agree that we are not going to be seeing an international competition level SQ install any time soon in Pakistan. we all worry about changing anything no matter ho small in our cars, let alone redesigning it completely. i think you guys will agree and i have noticed as well that getting a decent sq oriented pre is a good step towards an SQ setup. anyways since that is not an option here, lets concentrate on what are the options.

for any components to sound good you will first have to completely sound proof the door and make sure there are no rattling sounds in the car. if you can not do that, if you can not eliminate all the noises from your car then you will not notice any difference in most components. they will all sound the same to you. i think u had boston accoustic components as well. what happened to those?

mani1 (mani1) 2010-09-15 18:10:00 +0500 #24

Even though it is not in the scope of the thread I would still love to continue the debate on how a 9887 would not offer much better SQ compared to a 4150/4250DVD. Lets talk about technicals rather than simply posting specs or what we feel is better. SQ is subjective and all over the net you will find people having different opinions. All you need for a SQ based setup is a hi-volt preout, 24-bit DAC, T/A and a decent equalizer and you are set to go. If anything is missing please add to my knowledge. In case anyone wants more control aftermarket equalizers and processors are always there.

I must emphasize here that I have no doubt 9887 and P90/P99rs are better SQ pres than 4150/4250dvd and surely they will sound marginally better but the difference will never to be an extent that a $200 component (type X) or $130 component (type R) will sound better than a $340 component set (Morel Tempo 6) or a $300 set (Hertz HSK 165).

Ill give an example. In dubai I heard Infinity Kappas components which were installed in a specifically designed vehicle by Harman Kardon themselves with a HUGE setup of 4 JBL amps and 2 woofers etc. I listened to that setup (asked their rep to turn off the subs and other speakers ) and today I listened to STJ's setup. The difference in quality was HUGE. Now if we go by the previously given rationales, how come a local civic without dynamat sounds better than a setup designed by the company itself?

That been said, madhouse I cancelled the order for Boston acoustics comps. I then went for 2 different components but in the end, long story short, got Morel Tempo 6 which have been delivered. This thread is for a new set of components for my other car

madhouse12 (madhouse12) 2010-09-15 18:33:56 +0500 #25

well to keep the discussion going, i will point to a simple thing. u might have read in reviews that ne pres are coming with a display off feature as the display of the pre is supposed to increased noise in the system. i have a carrozeria cd player that has a 13 band (or more) equalizer and currently i have 5250sd in the car and i must tell you that carrozeria used to sound much better than 5250sd with the rest of the setup kept same. the only reason i changed the setup as because it had no sub out and it couldnt play mp3 which i use most of the times. without a decent sounding pre, your whole system will sound so so. would you even think of putting in a rockmars or similar pre in your car for an sq install? how bout lower end pres of pioneer even?

mani1 (mani1) 2010-09-15 18:40:33 +0500 #26

Sir I am not saying that pres do not matter. I am not even saying that 9887 or P90 suck. Infact if you read above I did admit that these pres are better but SQ is only marginally better. I will repeat here again that I am no expert and whatever I am writing is due to 1 month research and some auditioning only.

What I am saying is that if a pre has 24-bit DAC, T/A, decent 3 band parametric equalizer or a 5 band graphic equalizer along with hi-volt preout then the difference between that pre and 9887 would be marginal. Does 5250SD has all these features? Also when comparing with the previous pre, did everything else remained the same?

Also please tell me why does a bigger band equalizer means better sound? I mean isn't the whole purpose of SQ is to eliminate artificial enhancements? Would you judge a SQ based setup on flat EQ or a custom one?

EDIT: All my posts should be taken in context of passive components and comparison primarily with 9887. With active components and the 9887/P90/P99 it is a different ball game altogather and then no doubt there will be a lot of difference

madhouse12 (madhouse12) 2010-09-15 19:40:56 +0500 #27

all other things were kept the same between my prev pre and new one. regarding the equalizers, what i think is that the more bands you have, the more control you get over how to either enhance the sound or to make it neutral. and its not just DAC converter and the pre output volts... my prev pre had around 2 volts output and this one has 4... still the old one sounds better. spl's sony pre has 24 bit burr brown converter but even then i would say alpine 9887 will sound much better. because an sq pre is much more than just DAC and pre volt output.

stj174 (stj174) 2010-09-16 00:00:45 +0500 #28

Yes the HU does matter. But that does not mean that one can not install a SQ setup without 9887 or P99rs. The difference will off course be there But a SQ install will remain a SQ install, the level might differ.

Each and every component of the audio setup such as HU, Comps, Amps, Sub, Install and also the wiring used matters, not just the head unit alone..!

That does not mean to install a high end HU and to compromise on some low end comps wud suffice.

If you are installing a competition grade HU... then its better to add some competition grade amps, subs and comps too. rather than installing low end stuff.

Everything matters, and IMO installing 9887 with some kenwood 702 comps wont make it sound better than 4150 with a high end component (keeping the rest of the stuff constant)

stj174 (stj174) 2010-09-16 01:14:30 +0500 #29

oh WoooW...!!! Man i loved what you just said thanx

I wud like to add, The setting of the eq was flat, with no other tweaking what so ever. Only the xover were turned on from the processor. thats it ...!!! Meaning i am not using any control/ enhancements/ setting/ tweaks form the processor. Not even using 1/10 of what the processor is capable of. You have the results....!!

madhouse12 (madhouse12) 2010-09-16 02:17:28 +0500 #30

^^agreed

a system will only play as good as its weakest component

stj174 (stj174) 2010-09-16 02:25:40 +0500 #31

u said it

mohsin129 (mohsin129) 2010-09-16 12:53:07 +0500 #32

But seriously though mani... and i say this with no offence at all (believe this when i say it)... ur spending wayy too much way too fast...

u just started out with the SQ/SQL setups...u dont know really know practically what even the basic stuff is capable off...i mean i heard ur setup...the altis one...i could easily point out then and there almost 10 things that were completely disregarded and hence u were of the opinion ke im not satisfied and that i need to upgrade..

The INSTALL is the most important aspect of the system... it can either kill a system or make it truly shine.

That said... of course the choice of stuff is critical... but even if u go the KRX2 or the tempo route... if they arent installed perfectly (not properly but perfectly)...they will not sound good at all...that is a given !

the guy whom u demoed the setup off last night is one of THE most particular and dedicated guys you'll meet in your life....he is a perfectionist of sorts...so even though if his ride was dynamated and other shashkay etc...u can be sure that the parts that he did do, were of a perfectionist standard...and hence ur opinion as a result that his setup was pure endless bliss !
He and myself too are of the opinion, that if ur gonna do something.. you do it right..or just quit..

so the hardware matters yes... but ur ears are not trained to judge the traits of an SQ setup(no disrespect...but it comes with time..and likewise is the case with me)...i wudve been of the opinion that you for the time being...proper INSTALLED(the whole thing) the current system...paying special attention to particulars and u wudve noticed the difference then and there...

And then u gradually work the way up...critically analyzing the weak spots...and upgrading them...that way only one variable changes at a time...u realize where the flaws were and what upgrades were worth it...and ofcourse u get a hell lotta experience... as maddy said it...

"a system will only play as good as its weakest component"

you were listening to out of phase components...no wonder u were not satisfied at all...thats just not how it shud be...

so i suggest u do just that...there is a lotta stuff available in the audio scene...each of them have their bells and whistles...and each of them appeals to a different crowd..some might worship it some hate it... its all personal taste... which in my humble opinion ur not yet aware of...ke what ur actual listening taste is... u like stuff bright or mellow...how mellow is actually mellow ? not all metal domes are bright...and likewise not all silk domes are mellow... there's only so much the so called "reviews" can offer...cause simply u dont know the tastes of the guy who wrote them... and if they match with urs...

Also u said that SQ is all about listening to the music FLAT as such and stuff... while that may be essentially true...there is much more...

why do we spend so much on DSP's and other processors ? because they correct the flaws in the sound...thats what theyre meant to do...either on AUTO mode or MANUAL...

and also another correction...no mainstream headunit is TRULY FLAT... even at the FLAT mode of the EQ... it always lacks something and enhances the other... owing that to its DAC and other stuff... kenwood wud have a diff sounding FLAT..so wud sony or pioneer or Alpine...i guess u get my point.. every brand has particular traits which appeal to a different class of people (referring to listening tastes)..

a 24 bit DAC doesnt mean all of them wud be pure awesomeness.. there are further kinds..which when coupled with diff stuff sounds different... a Burr Brown DAC on pioneer wont sound the same as a sony's... similarly not every 24bit DAC is awesome... burr brown being one of the best of the bunch...for eg the "delta-sigma" DAC in the pioneers new 5250 and 7250 is not at all nice... a good standard 16-bit dac by alpine as such wud beat it by margins..

so since not all FLATs are the same...we have to use EQ for correction...EQ is not really artificial enhancement if used in moderation... and this brings me to this next thing u were talking about... ke all 5 band EQ's are the same... and it doesnt matter to have a larger band EQ cause u'll be running it flat anyways...

well lemme take the 5250sd for example... it doesnt have the 12.5 khz EQ...maxes out at 8khz...many ppl all over complain that it lacks highs response(referring to my earlier point that not all headunits are truly FLAT)... which is true...so ppl have to raise the 8khz considerably to make up for the lack...it has 5 band EQ... and now for contrast i take my pre... the 5150ub...it has 5 band EQ too...but a different set of 5 bands...it has the 12.5khz EQ at the highest also 10khz also 5khz etc... a broader range of EQ...hence more control of sound...

this is why we get DSP's ... which have a full 31 band EQ to offer...i.e maximal control over the spectrum and how it sounds... so either you use the DSP to tune it manually or use the Auto tune feature and let the mic be the judge...either way works..

sorry for such a long reply mani...i must admit i got a bit carried away...i apologize for that...but i mentioned a lot of stuff that is a must read for everyone...

so my final words are... Work your way up gradually...learn the basics...of everything...give time for your ears to get trained...u'll definitely enjoy the process much more...and the knowledge and experience that u'd gain wud be priceless...

Best of luck,
Shajeel.

mohsin129 (mohsin129) 2010-09-16 12:59:36 +0500 #33

and as for the choice on the components... the morel tempo's seem really promising... and shud serve you well provided you take care of the particulars that need to be taken care of when installing so u can get the max of its potential...

i can speak for the TRA amp...as im using iy myself...thats a really nice and clean amp..wud really compliment the morels...

mani1 (mani1) 2010-09-16 13:27:21 +0500 #34

@mohsin

A very detailed and informative post and no I am not offended because afterall this will result in a better setup ans sound for me.

I will be realistic here. I am not an audiophile and have no experience with sound systems either. This setup (the stuff which I bought) is going to my first sound system ever. I have never bought amp or sub before and the setup in altis which is 4150dvd and fusion components have been the only other car audio stuff i have ever bought in my life. Thats the reason it might seem i am rushing and buying stuff as fast as i can but if i stop and go gradually as you say I would never be able to complete my sound system. TBH I want a decent sounding setup which is free from rattles associated with SPL setups. I am not out there to build lahores best SQ setup or challenge anyone. Infact let me tell you that tge car this setup is going to be installed is not even mine and I dont drive it! Its a family car which is in use of everyone in the family.

Offcourse after spending a huge amount I would want the best possible sound. I have requested stj174 to guide me in the installation process and hopefully there would be no issues this time.

The most important question here i want to ask you is that what shortfalls did you experience in the Altis setup? This is really important so that the same mistakes are not repeated in the new setup

mohsin129 (mohsin129) 2010-09-16 13:35:26 +0500 #35

oh man the full reply didnt get posted...posting it again...

mohsin129 (mohsin129) 2010-09-16 13:35:46 +0500 #36

edited the post...now u can read the full version...

mani1 (mani1) 2010-09-16 13:58:55 +0500 #37

Actually I did and reply is above

Also apart from the questions above let me know what do you think constitutes a perfect install?

mohsin129 (mohsin129) 2010-09-16 14:02:34 +0500 #38

well thats true...going gradually takes time... since thats not an option..i say ur good to go...

besides ur in good hands with STJ174...trust his suggestions and atleast give them a try before disqualifying them... he is indeed capable of building extreme sounding setups...

as for the probs with the altis setup..even stj wud be able to identify them...we can discuss them further in detail once we meet...

madhouse12 (madhouse12) 2010-09-16 18:54:19 +0500 #39

everyone's sound perception is different. you learn the true qualities of an SQ system over time. to be totally honest, when i first heard sir stj's system, i thought that the speakers are flat... not the sq flat type but the no quality flat type.. but after a while i realized that they were picking up all the instruments and playing them as naturally as possible.

because i had been listening to a rear shelf based system most of my life and those type of system give boost to some particular frequencies. i used to have the equalizers setup like a smiley face :). but then when i first installed front stage components, i realized and others pointed that i have been listening to my trebles too high. because of that i used to miss out on many frequencies that used to get over shadowed by the high trebles. so by flattening the equalizers i got more sound quality and definition.

mani1 you are one of the lucky ones as you got to listen to one of the best sq systems in pakistan. you are also unlucky because now you will always be looking to get that kind of sound out of your system. that is what i have been looking for since 1997 when i heard alpine components in my friend's car. to me that was the ultimate definition of sq. the bass should slightly vibrate u, the vocals should be up close and personal, the guitar should have that ear piercing sound that just irritates your ears, the snare drum should feel tight and the cymbals should be wet.. but to achieve this i would need some eq tuning and then it will not be as flat as other sq enthusiasts might like it. but then again thats my sq..

what i am trying to say is that you should build an sq system over time. get to know what you think is sq and then build on that. that is why i ALWAYS advice people to audition the speakers that they want to buy and dont just trust the reviews.

mani1 (mani1) 2010-09-16 19:05:41 +0500 #40

I am waiting for the 26th. Thats when the Morel 6/W12PRS install is going to happen. I have alot of expectations and if things dont sound right then thats the end of car audio for me.

Lets hope for the best!